Sep 21, 2021 Carmel Plan Commission

[A. Call Meeting to Order]

[00:00:09]

>> GOOD EVENING I WILL CALL TO ORDER THE SEPTEMBER, 21, 2021 MEETING.

I ASKED THAT WE ALL RISE FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE. >> I PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE AMERICA, TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION, UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE WITH

LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL. >> THANK YOU, MR. SECRETARY, WOULD YOU CALL THE ROLL PLEASE.

(ROLL CALL). >> WE ARE ALL PRESENT AND ACCOUNTED FOR THEREFORE WE HAVE

[E. Approval of Minutes]

>> MOVED FOR APPROVAL. >> THE MINUTES FROM AUGUST ARE APPROVED.

[F. Communications, Bills, Expenditures, & Legal Counsel Report]

>> COMMUNICATIONS, BILLS, EXPENDITURES AND LEGAL COUNSEL REPORT.

>> A FEW ITEMS, IS MY PLEASURE TO INTRODUCE THE COUNCIL WHO WILL BE WORKING WITH PAUL TO REPRESENT THE PLANNED COMMISSION OF THE BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS. ALSO WORKING ON OTHER MATTERS FOR THE CITY. HE WAS THE ASSISTANT CITY ATTORNEY AND WORKED AT THE EXPO FIRM FIVE YEARS PRIOR TO THAT. A LOT OF GREAT EXPERIENCE AND WE CAN WELCOME HIM TO THE TEAM.

>> THE SECOND ISSUE IS THE ORDINANCE APPROVED BY COUNCIL LAST NIGHT.

THIS IS CASTRATION SETBACK ORDINANCE. IT WAS APPROVED BY COUNCIL BUT IT WAS AMENDMENT. YOU CAN SEE IN THE MEMO THESE LINES WERE STRUCK.

THIS WAS THE APPLICABILITY. PERTAINING TO USE VARIANCES, IT IS OUR OPINION AS LEGAL COUNSEL THAT THIS LANGUAGE, AND THE WAY IT RESTRICTED AND REGULATED THE VA STATUTE SO WE RECOMMNDED THAT IT IS STRUCK AS IT IS PREEMPTED BY STATE CODE. I WOULD BE HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY

QUESTIONS IF YOU HAVE ANY. OTHERWISE IT PASSED AS AMENDED. >> I WILL START WITH THE FIRST QUESTION. AS I GLANCE AT THIS IT LOOKS LIKE THE AMENDMENT OR THE MODIFIED PORTION IS TO A DEFINITION OR THE APPLICABILITY CAN YOU ELABORATE?

>> SURE, AS IT WAS SENT TO COUNSEL THIS WOULD HAVE APPLIED TO GAS STATION SETBACKS AND DECISIONS OF THE B LETTERS -- --BZA, THEY WOULD NOT CONSIDER THAT SETBACK REQUIREMENT.

IT WOULD NOT BE REQUIRED TO. >> AT A QUICK GLANCE AGAIN THE APPLICABILITY OF THE NEW SETBACK, IS STILL IN PLACE AS REGARDS, AUTOMOBILE SERVICE STATIONS, THOSE WHO HAVE A VARIANCE OF USE GRANTED BY THE BCA WOULD BE EXEMPTED. YES IT DOES APPLY ANY OTHER QUESTIONS BY THE COMMISSION? IF THERE ARE NO OTHER QUESTIONS DO WE HAVE A MOTION.

>> I MOVE FOR APPROVAL. >> THANK YOU SUE, THANK YOU CHRISTINE.

ALL IN FAVOR FOR THE MOTION SAY AYE. ANY OPPOSED?

THE CHANGES ARE APPROVED. THANK YOU. >> REPORTS, ANNOUNCEMENTS AND

[G. Reports, Announcements & Department Concerns]

DEPARTMENT CONCERNS. >> IN THE COMMERCIAL COMMITTEE THE DOCKET NUMBER PZ-2021-00099 ADLS AMEND: ED MARTIN SERVICE BAY ADD. AND THE FAMILY CARE WAS APPROVED 3-0.

THE RESIDENTIAL COMMITTEE MEETING WAS CANCELED DUE TO NO ITEMS TO REVIEW.

[00:05:03]

ONLY HAVE ONE MATTER BEFORE US TONIGHT. >> THANK YOU RACHEL.

[H. Public Hearings]

THE RULES AND PROCEDURES FOR PUBLIC HEARINGS PROVIDES FOR 15 MINUTES TO MAKE A CASE, THEN A PERIOD OF UP TO 20 ME -- MINUTES FOR THE PUBLICO SPEAK.

THE PETITIONER THEN AS 5 MINUTES TO RESPOND TO THE COMMENTS AND THEN AT THE CONCLUSION OF THE DEPARTMENT FOR THE PUBLIC HEARING WILL BE CLOSE. SO, WITH THAT I WILL READ OUR ONLY PUBLIC HEARING IT IS DOCKET NUMBER PZ-2021-00134 Z: GOAT REZONE. THE APPLICANT SEEKS APPROVAL FOR A SITE LOCATED AT 2,202ND STREET SOUTHWEST AND FRANK HAWKINS ADDITION LOT ONE BACK. IT IS CURRENTLY ZONED R2/RESIDENCE AND OLDTOWN OVERLAKE, CHARACTER BUREAU FILED BY DAVE COOTS OF COOTS, HENKE & WHEELER ON BEHALF OF TOMAHAWK

HOLDING. >> MY NAME IS TONY ALONG WITH MY COCOUNSEL DAVE COOTS AND PERKINS I REPRESENT TOMAHAWK HOLDING. IF I MAY PROCEED WITH MY PRESENTATION I WOULD BE HAPPY TO DO SO. COMMISSIONERS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, AGAIN MY NAME IS TONY, I REPRESENT TOMAHAWK HOLDINGS WHICH IS THE OWNER OF THE REAL ESTATE AT 2,282ND SOUTHWEST. I THINK ALL OF US IN THE ROOM KNOW THAT THAT LAND IS THE SITE OF THE GOAT TAVERN WHICH HAS BEEN THE SITE OF MUCH DISCUSSION.

IT HAS BEEN CLOSED SINCE APRIL. KEVIN AND HIS WIFE APRIL ARE ALSO WITH US AND THEY ARE THE OWNERS AND THEY ARE IN THE AUDIENCE. MR. PRESIDENT, YOU INDICATE I AM HERE ABOUT MY CLIENT TO REPORT AND REQUEST THE MISSION RESULT THE REAL ESTATE ON WHICH THE GOAT IS LOCATED FROM R2 TO THAT'S RIGHT IT'S IN THE MIDTOWN CARMEL DISTRICT, IF I CAN OPERATE MY SOLUTION HERE, THIS IS A PHOTO OF THE GOATS AS IT EXISTS.

THIS SLIDE REPRESENTS THE LOCATION ALONG THE TRAIL WITHIN THE MIDTOWN DISTRICT.

MY CLIENT WAS ALLOWED TO OPEN AND OPERATE FOUR MONTHS BEFORE THE CITY PRESENTED ITS APPLICATION LAST YEAR TO REZONE IN HINDSIGHT, I THINK WE CAN ALL AGREE THAT WAS NOT AN IDEAL SEQUENCE OF EVENTS. MICHAEL TONIGHT, IS TO PUT THE HORSE BACK BEFORE THE CARD BY RENEWING THE REZONE APPLICATION THAT THE CITY INITIALLY FILED -- ON BEHALF OF MY CLIENT OR TO COME AS CLOSE TO IT AS A PRIVATE CITIZEN CAN DO BY SUBMITTING AB2 REQUEST.

WITH A LICENSE THAT OPEN BOB'S CAFÉ. THE CITY ITSELF, PETITION TO REZONE THE GOAT PROPERTY ALONG WITH THE HISTORICAL SOCIETY PROPERTY IMMEDIATELY TO ITS NORTH FROM R2 TWO C2. THE CITY WITHDREW AS IT RELATED TO THE GOLD AND IT MOVED FORWARD AS IT RELATED TO THE HISTORICAL SOCIETY. AS A RESULT, THE HISTORICAL SOCIETY WAS REZONED WHILE THE GOAT PROPERTY REMAINS R2 AS INDICATED ON THE SLIDE.

LAST SUMMER WE ALL KNOW THE GOAT WAS MUCH MORE POPULAR WHEN IT OPENED THAT MR. PAUL AND HIS MANAGEMENT TEAM EXPECTED. THERE WERE ROWDY CUSTOMERS WHO ARE DISRESPECTFUL TO THE NEIGHBORS BUT I THINK IT HAS BEEN DOCUMENTED THAT MR. PAUL, AND HIS TEAM MANAGING THE GOAT FULLY COOPERATED WITH THE CITY TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM AND ENTERED INTO AGREEMENTS WITH THE CITY THAT CONTAINED ULTIMO CONDITIONS THAT ALLOWED THE GO TO STAY OPEN AND ALLOW THE GO TO OPERATE AS A GOOD NEIGHBOR UNTIL APRIL WHEN THE BZA REJECTED THE PETITION FOR A VARIANCE.

[00:10:02]

MR. PAUL WAS ENCOURAGED TO SPEND WELL OVER $1 MILLION IN CONSTRUCTION AND RENOVATION COSTS, NOT TO MENTION FURNISHINGS AND INVENTORY AND HE WAS ENCOURAGED TO OPEN HIS BUSINESS EVEN BEFORE THE APPLICATION WAS SUBMITTED ALONE APPROVED.

I MENTIONED THIS, ALSO BECAUSE, I WANT TO CONVEY, I HOPE THIS BOARD WILL REMEMBER THIS IS NOT A SITUATION THAT IS A RESULT OF CARELESSNESS BY MR. PAUL, BY ANY SORT OF EFFORT ON HIS FAULT TO CIRCUMVENT THE SYSTEM AND BE A BAD NEIGHBOR. HE WAS GOING ALONG WITH WHAT HE WAS TOLD TO DO BY THE CITY. I HOPE THE BOARD WILL REMEMBER AND ZONING DECISIONS UNDER INDIANA LAW HAS TO FOCUS ON THE BIG PICTURE. THE USE OF THE PROPERTY WHAT IS THE HIGHEST AND BEST USE OF THE PROPERTY WITHOUT REGARD TO INDIVIDUAL PERSONAL CHARACTERISTICS OF ANY BUSINESS OWNER. THE QUESTION BEFORE THE BOARD THIS EVENING IS WHAT DOES THE CITY WANT THIS PARTICULAR PIECE OF LAND TO BE USED FOR WITHOUT REGARD TO THE HISTORY OF UNFRIENDLY AS IT MAY BE BETWEEN MY CLIENT AND THE CITY OVER THE PAST YEAR. RESPECTFULLY, IF THE BOARD DETERMINES A REZONE IS INAPPROPRIATE BECAUSE, SOMEONE DOES NOT WANT THE GOAT HERE, I RESPECTFULLY RESPECT THAT THE QUESTION RAISES THE PROPER USE AND NOT THE PROPER USER. SO THE QUESTION BECOMES, WHAT IS THE BEST USE FOR THIS PARTICULAR PIECE OF LAND LOCATED AT 220 VAC SECOND STREET.

I RESPECTFULLY SUBMIT WE KNOW THE ANSWER BECAUSE THE CITY HAS ALREADY TOLD US.

THE CITY WANTS THIS PIECE OF PROPERTY TO BE ZONED COMMERCIAL. HOW DO WE KNOW THIS.

AS I INDICATED THE CITY ITSELF FILED A PETITION LAST YEAR TO REZONE THIS EXACT PIECE OF PROPERTY C2 ALONG WITH THE HISTORICAL SOCIETY PROPERTY IMMEDIATELY NEXT DOOR TO THE NORTH AS INDICATED ON THE IMAGE ON THE SCREENS ABOVE YOU. THE CITY DROPPED THE GOAT PROPERTY BUT AS IT STANDS TODAY, THE HISTORICAL SOCIETY PROPERTY IS ZONED C2 AND THE GOAT R1.

I SUBMIT THERE IS NO MATERIAL DIFFERENCE IN THE HIGHEST AND BEST USE FOR THOSE IMMEDIATELY ADJACENT PROPERTIES BOTH OF WHICH SIT IN THE MIDTOWN DISTRICT AND BOTH FRONT THE TRAIL. WHEN THAT C2 ZONING APPLICATION WAS CONSIDERED, THE BOARD OF HISTORICAL SOCIETY, THE PLAN COMMISSION'S OWN DEPARTMENT REPORT TYPICALLY RECOMMENDED APPROVAL OF A REZONE OF HISTORICAL PROPERTIES SOCIETY C2 AND RELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION TONIGHT, IN IN ITS REPORT THE STAFF DETERMINED AS FOLLOWS, I AM QUOTING HERE THE CITY IS PROPOSING TO REZONE THE MIXED USE IN ORDER TO ALIGN THE ZONING OF THE REAL ESTATE WITH THE PROPERTIES CURRENT AND FUTURE USE. THAT C2 DISTRICT IS ALSO PROPOSED TO BE CONSISTENT WITH OTHER NEARBY PROPERTY ZONES. THE REZONING OF THIS PROPERTY, IS CONSISTENT WITH PREVIOUS PLANNING AND ZONING POSITIONS MADE BY THE PLAN COMMISSION AND THE CITY COUNCIL WHICH SUPPORTS THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE GREENWAY AND THIS PART OF THE CITY.

IF THE REZONING OF THE HISTORICAL SOCIETY PARCEL IS CONSISTENT WITH PREVIOUS PLANNING AND ZONING, ACTIONS BY THE PLAN COMMISSION AND THE CITY COUNCIL, THEN CERTAINLY REZONING THE LAND IMMEDIATELY NEXT DOOR TO IT IS ALSO CONSISTENT WITH THE PLANNING AND ZONING ACTIONS.

FURTHERMORE, AT THE DECEMBER 15, 2020 MEETING AT THE PLAN COMMISSION WHEN THE HISTORICAL SOCIETIES NEXT DOOR PROPERTY WAS UP FOR CONSIDERATION THE MINUTES OF THAT MEETING REFLECT THAT MIKE FROM VS REPORTED TO THIS COMMISSION THAT THE CITIES LONG-TERM PLAN IS TO REZONE ALL OF THE PROPERTIES TO C2 INCLUDING THE GOAT PROPERTY. WE ARE NOT AWARE OF ANY CHANGES TO THE CITIES LONG-TERM PLAN, AND WE BELIEVE THE CITY STILL WANTS ALL OF THAT LAND OWNED C2.

THE HISTORICAL SOCIETY PETITION WAS SUCCESSFUL THAT EVENING. IN FACT AS THE DATA SHOWS, THE GOLDS PROPERTY IS THE ONLY PARCEL OF REAL ESTATE THAT FRONTS THE TRAIL IN THE MIDTOWN DISTRICT THAT IS NOT EITHER ZONED C2 OR PART OF THE PUD AS INDICATED IN THIS SLIDE FROM THE GIS, THE PARTING YELLOW IS THE GOAT'S. IF THIS COMMISSION DOES NOT BELIEVE TODAY, SEPTEMBER, 321, THAT THE BEST USE FOR THE PROPERTY BETWEEN FIRST STREET AND SECOND STREET THAT IS EITHER C2 WERE FUNCTIONALLY EQUIVALENT TO IT, I HAVE TO ASK WHY NOT.

[00:15:06]

THEY LOOK AT THE USE OF LAND AND NOT THE USER. IF THE GOATS OPERATIONS WERE A PROBLEM, AND ADMITTEDLY THEY WERE LAST SUMMER, THEN THE SOLUTION IS NOT TO DENY ZONING, IT IS FOR THE CITY TO ENFORCE NOISE ORDINANCES, PROSECUTE AND USE EXERCISE -- HELP WITH COMPLAINTS. ONLY THE CITY CAN REQUEST THE REZONE.

WE BELIEVE THE MOST APPROPRIATE ZONING THAT A PROPERTY OWNER SUCH AS MY CLIENT CAN REQUEST IS 8B2 ZONE. I KNOW IN ITS REPORT STAFF SUGGESTED THAT A B7 WOULD BE MORE APPROPRIATE BUT WE DISAGREE BECAUSE THE B7 CONDITIONS COULD BE INTERPRETED TO EXCLUDE MY CLIENTS OPERATIONS FROM COVERAGE OF ZONING. PACIFICALLY THE BB7 RESTAURANTS WITHOUT DRIVE THROUGH. IF THEY THINK THAT WOULD INCLUDE THE GOATS OPERATIONS THAT IS SOMETHING WORTHY OF CONVERSATION, BUT OUR CONCERN IS THAT DESCRIPTION SO NARROW IT MAY NOT INCLUDE THE OPERATIONS OF THE GOAT. AGAIN, BECAUSE THE CITY HAS EXPRESSED A CONSISTENT DESIRE THAT ALL OF THE PROPERTIES ALONG THE AREA ZONED C2, WE THINK B2, IS MORE APPROPRIATE. WE HAVE BEEN IN CONVERSATION WITH STAFF ABOUT NARROWING THE BROAD LIST OF BUSINESS TYPES AND OPERATIONS THAT CAN BE PERMITTED BY B2.

I THINK THOSE CONVERSATIONS WILL CONTINUE, IF THIS COMMISSION RISK PORTS FAVORABLY OUT THIS EVENING. BASED ON THE MANY PUBLIC STATEMENTS FROM THE CITY ITSELF AND THE CITY'S OWN ACTIONS IN REZONING THE NEXT-DOOR NEIGHBOR PROPERTY WE ARE CONFIDENT THAT B2 IS THE HIGHEST AND BEST USE OF THIS LAND AND IT IS ENTIRELY CONSISTENT WITH THE CITIES LONG-TERM VISION FOR WHAT REAL ESTATE ALONG THE TRAIL AND THE MIDTOWN DISTRICT SHOULD BE.

THEREFORE WE ASK THAT THIS APPLICATION BE SUBMITTED TO THE COMMERCIAL SUBCOMMITTEE FOR DISCUSSION FOR FURTHER CONSIDERATION AND NEGOTIATIONS TOWARDS APPROPRIATE COMMERCIAL

REZONING FOR MY CLIENT. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. >> THANK YOU SIR.

WE WILL NOW TURN TO PUBLIC COMMENTS PORTION OF THIS HEARING.

CAN I SEE A SHOW OF HANDS OF THOSE OF YOU WHO WISH TO SPEAK THIS EVENING ON BEHALF OF A GROUP? A NEIGHBORHOOD ASSOCIATION, OF ANY KIND.

ANYONE WHO WANTS TO SPEAK ON BEHALF OF OF THE GROUP. OKAY, NOW CAN I SEE A SHOW OF HANDS OF OTHERS WHO WISH TO SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES. KEEP HER HANDS UP PLEASE OKAY, WE HAVE 20 MINUTES ALLOTTED. JAIL, BECAUSE YOU ARE -- JAIL --JILL, BECAUSE YOU ARE SPEAKING FOR A GROUP I WILL ALLOW YOU TO SOMETIME AND WILL START US OFF AND EACH GROUP MEMBER WILL GET TO MINUTES. JI LL, YOU MAY COME UP AND SPEAK.

>> HELLO MY NAME IS JILL WITH THE D.C. CARAMEL CITIZENS FOR RESPONSIBLE ZONING.

THE GOAT TAVERN HAS BEEN A COMPLICATED, MESSY STORY. IT MAY BE A GOOD CONCEPT AT A DIFFERENT LOCATION BUT SINCE IT IS ZONED R2 AND ADJACENT TO A RESIDENTIAL NEIGHBORHOOD IT SHOULD NOT BE REZONED JUST TO ACCOMMODATE THE REQUEST. THEY DENIED THE VARIANCE THAT WOULD ALLOW THEM TO CONTINUE TO OPERATE IN ITS CURRENT LOCATION. THE DEPARTMENT REPORT FOR THIS PUBLIC HEARING STATE STAFF DOES NOT SUPPORT THE PROPOSED REZONED TO THE B2 CLASSIFICATION AS CURRENTLY PROPOSED. THE DISTRICT DOES NOT REQUIRE A DEVELOPMENT PLAN AT THE LIST OF

[00:20:03]

THIS IS NOT AN IMPROVEMENT FOR THIS SITE OR NEIGHBORS. THIS PARCEL IS TOO SMALL FOR EXPANSION. IT STRETCHES FROM BORDER TO BORDER WITHOUT EFFECTIVE BUFFERING FOR THE NEIGHBORS. IT IS UNFORTUNATE THAT THE CITY'S MISSTEPS ALLOW THE GOAT TAVERN TO OPERATE ON RESIDENTIAL PARCEL. THERE HAS BEEN REPORTS OF INAPPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR THEY HAVE NOT BEEN A GOOD NEIGHBOR TO THE NEIGHBORS.

THE INCOMPLETE PACKAGE SHOWS LACK OF CONSIDERATION FOR THE PLANT COMMISSION AND THE PROCESS BY GIVING YOU RELEVANT DETAILS OR EXPLANATIONS ON WHY IT SHOULD BE REZONE AND HOW IT WILL MITIGATE ITS OWN CHALLENGES. I AM ASKING YOU TO ASK THESE QUESTIONS TO THE CITY AND YOURSELVES. WHY SHOULD THE PROPERTY BE APPROVED FOR REZONED WHO BENEFITS, WHO SUFFERS. WHAT USES WOULD BE ALLOWED IF THEY SELL THE PROPERTY THE HELPMATE THIS EFFECT NEIGHBORS. IS THIS WHAT THEY PREVIOUSLY DENIED.

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PREVIOUS COMMITMENTS. THE LIQUOR LICENSE ALLOWED THEM TO BE OPEN UNTIL 3:00 A.M. NEIGHBORS WOULD LIKE TO HAVE QUIET TIME WITH THEIR VISITORS AND FAMILIES. HOW CAN THEY BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE NOISE AND UNRULY BEHAVIOR LATE INTO THE NIGHT HOW MANY PEOPLE CAN BE CRAMMED INTO THIS LIMITED SPACE HOW MANY PATRONS WILL CONGREGATE OUTDOORS WHERE YOU CANNOT CONTROL NOISE A NEIGHBOR WROTE CITY MADE AN ERROR ALLOWING THE GOAT TO REMODEL AND REOPEN BUT THE SOLUTION IS NOT TO CHANGE THE ZONING AND PUSH IT DOWN THE THROATS OF THE NEIGHBORS, HOW CAN THE CITY OWN ITS MISTAKE AND ASSIST THIS NOISY OUTDOOR TAVERN TO FIND A SUITABLE SITE IN THE MIDTOWN AREA.

A B2 DOES NOT BELONG ON THE PROPERTY. IT IF IT IS APPROVED THE NEIGHBORS WILL STRUGGLE FOR PEACE AND QUIET AND A PRESIDENT WILL BE SET FOR OTHER REASONS.

I WOULD NOT WANT THE GOAT TAVERN OR ANY TAVERN NEXT MY HOME. A NEIGHBOR SAID CAN YOU IMAGINE

A TAVERN IN OUR COMMON AREA, GOOD GRIEF. >> THANK YOU.

NOW INDIVIDUALS WHO WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK. ANYONE IS WELCOME TO GO FIRST.

IT WILL BE 2 MINUTES PER SPEAKER. THE SPEAKERS WILL BE TIMED, AFTER YOU FINISH INTRODUCING YOURSELF AND TELLING US APPROXIMATELY WHERE YOU LIVE, THE LIGHT WILL GO GREEN AND THE TIME WILL START THEN. WITH ONE MINUTE RAINING THE LIGHT WILL GO YELLOW AND THEN IT WILL GO READ AND YOU WILL HEAR AND YOU ONE OF THEM.

>> MY NAME IS DENISE I LIVE IN MIDTOWN CARMEL, I LOVE LIVING IN CARMEL.

I APPRECIATE EVERYTHING ABOUT CARMEL AND THE DIFFERENT AMENITIES AND CHOICES WE HAVE HERE. I CHOSE TO LIVE IN DOWNTOWN CARMEL BECAUSE I WANTED TO LIVE IN A WALKABLE, THRIVING, MIXED USE URBAN AREA. IT WAS MY CHOICE.

I WANTED TO BE SURROUNDED BY LIFE, ENTERTAINMENT, RESTAURANTS AND BARS AND HAVE OPTIONS FOR ACTIVITIES. I WAS EXCITED WHEN THE GOAT OPEN.

IT WAS SUMMER AND I KNEW WAS A GREAT ADDITION TO THE AREA. I ENJOYED THE FACT IT WAS 21 PLUS, I SPENT A LOT OF TIME THERE AND THERE OUTDOOR SPACE WHICH IS COMPLETELY UNIQUE TO THE AREA. I FELT COMFORTABLE IN THE GOAT AND ENJOYED BEING THERE.

THE GOAT WAS FUN, LIVELY AND WELCOMING AND A DESIRABLE ATTRACTION FOR PEOPLE WERE ENJOYING THE TRAIL. WORKERS HAVING LUNCH, OR WORKERS FROM ALLIED SOLUTIONS AND OTHER NEARBY BUILDINGS HAVING A DRINK AFTER WORK. DOG LOVERS LOVED IT.

PEOPLE WANTED TO BE OUTDOORS AND MILLENNIAL'S WHICH IS VITAL TO FILLING THE AREA.

BUT GOAT WAS A DRIVING ECONOMIC FORCE OF THE AREA. THE GOAT IS PERFECTLY IN LINE WITH THE CARMEL PLAN. IT OUTLINES NORTH-CENTRAL CARMEL AS CLEARLY UNIQUE IN COMPARISON WITH THE OTHER DISTRICT AND IT IS AN URBAN CORE. IT IS LAND CLASSIFICATION USE PRIMARY CORE. THE CITY WANTS ALL PARCEL ALONG THE TRAIL TO BE ZONED AS

[00:25:02]

THE BUSINESS COMMERCIAL ZONING FOR ALL OF MIDTOWN HAS BEEN THE INTENTION OF THE AREA FOR YEARS.

IT IS IN LINE WITH THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AND THE BEST AND HIGHEST USE OF THE PARCEL.

IT IS THE VERY DEFINITION OF MIDTOWN CARMEL. IT IS A NEW, VIBRANT REVITALIZATION OF CARMEL'S OLD INDUSTRIAL AREA LOCATED IN THE THRIVING ENTERTAINMENT CENTER OF

THE CITY. THANK YOU SO MUCH. >> THANK YOU.

OR SUPPORT FOR THE SPEAKERS. I WOULD ASK THAT, WHEN THE LIGHT GOES YELLOW THAT THE NEXT PERSON

TAKES THEIR PLACE IN LINE BEHIND THE CURRENT SPEAKER. >> I AM SAMANTHA LAMARR I AM A RESIDENT OF LAMARR -- CARMEL. I LIVE IN THE FLATS VEHICLE OF THEIR MY CHILDREN.

THE FIRST YEAR WE LIVED NEXT TO THE COURT. THE KIDS PLAY AREA.

IT IS GREAT. LOTS OF ENERGY. I HEAR PEOPLE OUT THERE PLAYING BALL. I EXPECTED THAT. I DID NOT GET UPSET I ACTUALLY LOVED IT BECAUSE IT SHOWED THE CITY COULD GO ON LATER IN THE NIGHT WITH A LOT OF FUN AND PEOPLE HAD EXPERIENCE OF WHAT CARMEL WAS ABOUT. I APPRECIATE THE NIGHTLIFE OF CARMEL. I LOVE SABER I LOVE WHAT MY FRIENDS AT NIGHT.

I LOVE GOING TO FORK AND NAIL. I LOVE GOING TO SUN KEEP YOUR EYE LIKE VARIETY.

WHAT THE GOAT BROUGHT TO US OR THAT AREA WAS CHOICE. WHEN YOU LIVE THEIR DAY IN AND DAY OUT AND WE HAVE SO MANY BEAUTIFUL EVENINGS WHETHER IT IS COLD OR WARM IT IS A BEAUTIFUL PLACE TO BE. YOU WANT TO HAVE CHOICE. HAVING OTHER PLACES TO GO TO GET A DRINK AND TO MEET NEW PEOPLE AND TO OFFER THAT FOR OTHER BUSINESSES LIKE WHAT KEVIN HAS IN CARMEL, WHAT A GREAT WAY TO SUPPORT IT. I HATE, WHAT HAPPENED LAST SUMMER BECAUSE PEOPLE TO NOT WANT THE GOAT THERE. THAT STUFF CAN BE CHANGED.

IT IS A VERY VIBRANT PLACE IN THE PEOPLE LIVE THERE AND I'M NOT SPEAKING FOR GROUP BUT I COULD SPEAK FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE LIVE IN THE APARTMENTS, WE DO WANT THAT VARIETY.

YOU CAN ONLY VISIT THE PLACES I NAMED SO MANY TIMES AND IT IS TIME TO GO SOMEPLACE NEW.

WE DID HAVE OUR ROUNDS AND WE WANTED TO FINISH OVERNIGHT AT THE GOAT.

I HOPE YOU CONSIDER IT IS ABOUT VARIETY AND CHOICE AND FOR PEOPLE TO HAVE DIFFERENT PLACES

TO GO AND VISIT HERE IN THE CITY I THINK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. >> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU MY NAME IS JEFF I LIVE AT THE RAILYARD. RIGHT NEXT DOOR TO THE GOAT.

PREVIOUS TO THAT I LIVED IN SOPHIA SQUARE SO I'VE LIVED IN THAT AREA FOR OVER FIVE YEARS.

JUST ABOUT EVERYBODY I KNOW WOULD AGREE THAT PROPERTY, AS THE GOAT WHAT IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE. IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE RESIDENTS RIGHT THERE.

IS NOT WHAT BUSINESS WILL BE THERE BUT HOW IT WILL BE ZONE. I PERSON BELIEVE THE GOAT CHECKS ALL OF THE BOXES. IT HAS OUTDOOR AREA, THAT IS WHAT PEOPLE LIKE.

IN THE MIDTOWN AREA. I KNOW THEY ARE WILLING TO ADDRESS THE THINGS THAT ARE A CONCERN TO THE PUBLIC. FOR ME AND MOST OF MY FRIENDS, IT IS A PLACE WE LOVE TO GO.

IT ADDS A LOT TO THE MIDTOWN AREA. THANK YOU.

HELLO I LIVE ON ONE RIGHT WHERE I HAVE 30 WINDOWS ON THE TOP FLOOR.

IF I LOOK OUT OF MY OFFICE I LOOK AT THE AREA. I FAILED TO SEE ANY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THREE AND WHAT GOES ON A GOAT. I'VE SEEN PUBLIC DEFECATION, PEOPLE VOMITING, ALL COMING FROM THE AREA. TO ME IT IS UNFORTUNATE THAT KEVIN'S BAR HAS BEEN TARGETED AS SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAT SUN KING OFFICERS OR FORK AND HAIL, MAYBE IT IS A PERSONALITY CONFLICT BUT NO DIFFERENCE. I SEE EVERYTHING.

SECONDLY, I HAVE BROUGHT MANY PARTIES TO KEVIN AND HE HAS BEEN A GRACIOUS HOST.

I BROUGHT PEOPLE FROM FISHERS FROM BLOOMINGTON, PEOPLE FROM EVEN ARIZONA.

WE ALWAYS HUNG OUT AT GOAT. LATELY SINCE THE GOAT HAS BEEN DONE WE SPENT MORE TIME IN

[00:30:03]

WANT THEM BACK. >> THANK YOU. NEXT PLEASE.

>> HELLO I'M AN ATTORNEY I REPRESENT CARMEL AND IMMEDIATE NEIGHBORS TO THE SIDE.

TOGETHER THEY HAVE INVESTED MORE THAN $30 MILLION IN THIS AREA IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS.

TWO PEOPLE ARE HERE WHO WILL ADDRESS YOU DIRECTLY AND TALK ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCES AND WHY THEY ASKED THAT YOU DID NIGHT RECOMMEND DENIAL -- LET ME RESPOND TO THE ARGUMENT THAT WERE MADE. RESPECTFULLY YOU CANNOT PUT THE VERSE BEFORE THE CART.

THE CART HAS ALREADY LEFT. THIS REQUEST FOR B2 ZONING WITHOUT CONSIDERING WHAT HAS OCCURRED OVER THE PAST YEAR END A HALF. THE LEGAL STANDARD, THE LEGAL STANDARD THAT YOU LOOK AT. IT IS NOT JUST THE USER OR USE, THE LEGAL STANDARD IS YOU REVIEW COMPREHENSIVE PLAN, CURRENT CONDITIONS AND CHARACTER OF THE USES IN EACH DISTRICT THE MOST DESIRABLE USE FOR WHICH THE LAND IN EACH DISTRICT HAS ADAPTED THE CONSERVATION OF PROPERTY VALUES THROUGHOUT THE JURISDICTION AND RESPONSIBLE DEVELOPMENT AND GROWTH.

THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE TASKED WITH LOOKING AT. I ENCOURAGE YOU TO REVIEW THE STAFF REPORT FOR THE REASONS WHY, THIS REQUEST DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

LOOKING AT THE CITYWIDE POLICIES IN THE PLAN, SUCH AS, TO'S COURAGE LAND USE, PROTECTED CHARACTER, SAFETY AND FUNCTION OF THE GREENWAY, THAT IS PRECISELY WHAT THESE NEIGHBORS ARE ASKING YOU DO. I'M GOING TO TURN IT OVER TO THEM.

>> AREN'T THERE ANYMORE OUTBURSTS THOSE INDIVIDUALS WILL BE REMOVED.

>> GOOD EVENING. MY NAME IS ANDREW STOKELY. THE CITY -- WITH THE CITY'S HELP WE DEVELOPED THE APARTMENTS WHERE THE GOAT IS. WE ALSO MANAGE THE APARTMENTS DIRECTLY ACROSS TO THE BOULEVARD TO THE EASE. WE ARE ON TWO DIFFERENT SIDES OF THE GOAT. MY EXPERIENCES, MAINLY WITH RESIDENTS OF MARS WHO HAVE EXPRESSED THEIR FEELINGS TO ME, AND I HAVE RECEIVED FEES FROM EMPLOYEES AT BOTH OF OUR PROPERTIES. THE MAJORITY OF THE CORRESPONDENCE IS PART OF EARLIER ZONING AND HEARING SPIRIT THAT WAS UNTIL IT CLOSED, I RECEIVED VIDEOS, E-MAILS, LETTERS AND CONCERNS HOW THINGS WERE OPERATING. COULD WE WRITE TO HELP PEOPLE WHO WERE CALLING THE POLICE AND NOTHING WAS HAPPENING. SOMETHING TOLD ME THEY WOULD NOT RENEW THEIR LEASES. IN THIS TIMEFRAME IT HAD A NEGATIVE IMPACT AND THE ENJOYMENT OF THE HOMES AND THE EMPLOYEES ABILITIES TO SOLVE PROBLEMS. AND NEGATIVELY IMPACT OUR BUSINESS AND INVESTMENT. WE ARE ALL FOR THE GROWTH AND RISING TIDE THEY NEED TO BE VERY RESPECTFUL OF EACH OTHER. THE CURRENT USE END USER HAS

[00:35:08]

IS THERE LOCATION WHERE THIS CONCEPT MAY THRIVE, POSSIBLY, BUT I WOULD HELP THE CITY WOULD

BE VERY INVOLVED IN DECIDING WHAT THAT WAS. >> GOOD EVENING.

MY NAME IS ALAN COHEN AND I AM& THE BAD NEIGHBOR. I LIVE AT 248 SECOND STREET AND I WANT ALL OF YOU TO KNOW THAT. I WANT TO START BY SAYING, I AM NOT OPPOSED TO REASONABLE AND RESPONSIBLE BUSINESS AND RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPMENT AND MIDTOWN.

I SUPPORT IT WHOLEHEARTEDLY I SUPPORT IT. AS WE WERE BUILDING OUR HOUSE, AND AFTER TAKING POSSESSION OF THE HOUSE WHEN IT WAS FINISHED WE DID NOT CONSIDER REMONSTRATED AGAINST WHAT WE WERE TOLD WAS COMING TO THE OLD BUZZ CAFÉ LOCATION.

IT WAS GOING TO BE A CIGAR AND BOURBON TYPE RESTAURANT WITH 100 PATRONS.

IT SOUNDED GREAT. WHAT DID WE CAP. WE GOT THE GOAT.

AUGUST OF 2020 IT WAS VERY DIFFERENT. THE GOAT OPEN WITH 350 PATRONS, 80% OF THEM OUTDOORS, OPEN UNTIL 3:00 A.M. WITH ONLY TWO ONE PERSON RESTROOMS RESULTING IN ALL KINDS OF REPULSIVE CONDUCT ON OUR PROPERTY AND THROUGHOUT MIDTOWN, ALL DOCUMENTED BY SECURITY CAMERAS AND SENT TO THE MAYOR, THE CITY COUNCIL, DOCS, THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AND BROUGHT TO THE PETITIONER'S ATTENTION MANY TIMES.

INCLUDING OVER 100 TRESPASSES ON OUR PROPERTY ALONE, AS WELL AS MANY OTHERS OVER MIDTOWN.

ALL OF THIS WAS ALSO DOCUMENTED AND SENT TO EVERYONE. I HAD A CONVERSATION WITH MR. PAUL DURING THE MEETING WHEN THE POLICE BROUGHT HIM OVER SO WE COULD SEE WHAT WAS HAPPENING.

WE WANTED THEM TO SEE IT ON CAMERA. I HAD A CONVERSATION WITH HIM ON MY FRONT PORCH. I WAS AMAZED WHEN HE SAID ALL OF THE PROBLEMS ARE HAPPENING AFTER MIDNIGHT. WHY DON'T READ REDUCE WHAT YOU HAVE IN YOUR ESTABLISHMENT.

HIS RESPONSE WAS OVERWHELMING. HE SAID I CAN'T DO THAT HALF OF MY PROFITS OCHER AFTER MIDNIGHT.

I MAKE $5,000 AFTER MIDNIGHT. THAT IS WHEN I KNEW, WE HAD A PROBLEM.

HE DID NOT CARE ABOUT THE NEIGHBORS OR THE NEIGHBORHOOD. ALL HE CARED ABOUT WAS HOW MUCH

PROFIT I CAN MAKE. PRETTY DISGUSTING. >> MR. COHEN IN FAIRNESS TO THE

OTHER SPEAKERS -- >> LET ME SAY THIS. I APPRECIATE WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND YOUR DECORUM IN ALL OF THAT. I HAVE BEEN WAITING ONE YEAR. I'VE BEEN DENIED THREE TIMES TO SPEAK ABOUT WHAT IS REALLY HAPPENING TO US AND TO THE NEIGHBORS IN MIDTOWN.

NOW I AM TOLD HERE THAT I HAVE D THREE TIMES TO APPEAR BEFORE THE DA, IT IS NOT RIGHT, I HAVE NO CHANCE TO DO ANY REBUTTAL GETS ANYTHING THEY SAY. YOU HAVE HEARD NOTHING BUT A LOT OF THINGS THAT ARE NOT REALLY GOING ON. IT'S TRUE THEY HAVE GREAT

CUSTOMERS. >> FOR THE RECORD MR. COHEN, THE FILE CONTAINS FOR THE BENEFIT OF

THE PETITIONER ALL OF THE SUBMISSIONS -- >> I APPRECIATE THAT, IT IS VERY

UPSETTING TO ME WHEN I AM SEEING. >> NEXT PLEASE.

>> MY NAME IS JANE BLACK, THANK YOU FOR ALLOWED ME TOO SPEAK. WE LIVE DIRECTLY BEHIND THE GOAT, OUR HOME IS 130-YEARS-OLD. I WANT TO SAY IT'S DIFFICULT TO GIVE THIS TESTIMONY.

KEVIN HAS DONE A WONDERFUL JOB OF ATTEMPTING TO TAKE CARE OF THE ISSUES.

[00:40:07]

WHILE I AM EMPATHETIC, I CAN BE SENTIMENTAL. THE NEIGHBORS AND I DO NOT WANT TO PAY THE PRICE FOR THE STAKES THE CITY HAS MADE. LONG BEFORE THE TRAIL WAS DEVELOPED WE WERE TOLD THAT OUR BLOCK WAS A PROBLEM. WE WERE TOLD IT WAS A PROBLEM BUT I DON'T SEE IT AS A PROBLEM. IT'S A NEIGHBORHOOD. WE HAVE NEIGHBORS AND WE HAVE A GOOD. WE CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS. WE ARE A NEIGHBORHOOD.

SO, TO BE A RESIDENTIAL SURROUNDED BY COMMERCIAL, FOR US THAT MEANS WE ARE IN A SPECIAL PLACE, NOT A BAD PLACE. IT WAS SAID, I'M SURE YOU AGREE WITH THAT.

THE ONLY ISSUE THAT I HAVE WITH THE GOAT IS THE NOISE. I'M NOT SURE BECAUSE OF THE WAY THE AREA HAS BEEN DEVELOPED I'M NOT SURE THERE'S ANYTHING THAT CAN BE DONE ABOUT IT.

WE SIT RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF IT. THE NOISE CAN BE HEARD IN OUR HOME. THANK YOU FOR LISTENING. I AM SORRY.

>> THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU FOR ALLOWING THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK.

I LIVE WITHIN 15-20 YARDS OF GOAT. I MOVED HEAR FROM ATLANTA, GEORGIA TWO YEARS AGO, PRIOR TO GOAT BEING OPENED OR KNOWN AS AN ESTABLISHMENT.

LIKE MANY PEOPLE I CHOSE TO LIVE WHERE I LIVE, I CHOSE CARMEL, INDIANA PRIMARILY DUE TO THE SAFETY. AS A FEMALE SAFETY IS IMPORTANT TO ME.

UNFORTUNATELY AS REFERENCE TODAY, THERE WERE MANY ACTS WHEN THE GOAT WAS REOPENED, WHEN I OPENED MY BACK DOOR, IT WAS NOT SAFE I WAS APPROACHED BY MULTIPLE MEN.

LUCKILY, IT WAS NOT A SAFE SITUATION. I DON'T WANT TO HAVE A FEAR OF WALKING OUT OF MY DORM BEING AFRAID THAT SOMEONE WILL ATTACK ME.

THESE WERE PATRONS OF THE GOAT BECAUSE IT WAS LATE AT NIGHT AND I ASKED.

IT HAS BEEN BROUGHT UP MANY TIMES TODAY, WE WANT TO DO WHAT IS BEST FOR THE CITY ON THE PROPERTY. AS THE CITY OF CARAMEL I KNOW SAFETY IS HIM PORN SO I ENCOURAGE YOU TO CONSIDER THAT AS A PRIME FACTOR WHEN CONSIDERING THIS REZONING.

>> THANK YOU. >> AFTER INCOME AS I THOUGHT I HAD TO SAY SOMETHING.

-INCORPORATED MAY BE YOU GUYS HAVE THE WRONG INTERPRETATION LIKE WE CAME IN AND WE WANTED TO DISRUPT THINGS AND WE WANT PEOPLE THERE. THERE WAS NO WAY TO PREPARE WITH COVID-19 AND WE DID KNOW WE WOULD RECEIVE THAT KIND OF VOLUME.

OBVIOUSLY WE WERE NOT PREPARED. MR. PAUL AND I WE HAVE WORKED WITH EVERYONE WE COULD AS FAR AS PUTTING TOGETHER A PLAN THINGS IN LINE. I'M SURE YOU LOOK DEAD JANUARY AND APRIL THERE WERE PROBABLY NOT MANY IF ANY AT ALL. MR. COHEN SPOKE ABOUT PEOPLE COMING ON HIS PROPERTY. THEY WERE COMING ON OUR PROPERTY AS WELL.

WE DO HAVE CAMERA FOOTAGE. ANYTIME WE WOULD SEE SOMEONE URINATING THERE WAS NEVER RESPONSIBILITY. I WENT THEY WERE NOT EVEN OUR PEOPLE.

THEY WALKED PAST OUR PROPERTY. ONTO HIS PROPERTY. WE HAVE BEEN CLOSED DOWN FOR MONTHS NOW. MR. RENO HE STOPPED BY. WE HAVE PEOPLE COMING ON TO OUR PROPERTY USING THE RESTROOM AND WE HAVE BEEN CLOSE FOR MONTHS. WE DON'T WANT TO BE OPEN UNTIL

[00:45:04]

WE HAVE TRIED DIFFERENT THINGS AS FAR AS PORTA POTTY SPIRIT THIS IS NOT SOMETHING WE WELCOME OR WANT. I REMIND EMPLOYEES TO BE SAFE. WE DON'T WANT IT EITHER.

BUT WE HAVE A BUSINESS TO OUR LEFT AND A BUSINESS ON THE SIDE. A NEW BUSINESS THAT WILL HAVE 100 PEOPLE OUTSIDE. THERE WILL BE NOISE. WE DON'T WANT TO BE THE BAD NEIGHBOR. WE JUST WANT TO BE OPEN AND PUT POLICIES INTO PLACE WHERE

EVERYONE IS SAFE. THAT IS WHAT WE ARE ABOUT. >> THANK YOU.

>> HELLO, I CAME TO THE UNITED STATES IN 2014, AUGUST 1. IN THE LAST SEVEN YEARS, I HAVE VISITED 27 STATES AND CARMEL IS ONE OF THE BEST PLACE THAT IS WHY LIVE HERE.

IN THE PAST I HAD ISSUES, NOT BECAUSE OF WORK, PEOPLE WOULD HARASS ME.

I HAD INCIDENTS WHERE PEOPLE STOP ME. THAT DID NOT MAKE ME LEAVE CARMEL. THERE IS GOOD AND BAD. THAT IS ALL I MEANT TO SAY.

I HAVE SEEN MANY TIMES, PEOPLE DRINK SOMETHING AND DO STUFF IN OTHER AREAS.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE SHOULD CLOSE OF BUSINESS. I DON'T DRINK WHEN I USED TO GO THERE TO SEE YOUNG PEOPLE. I DON'T THINK CLOSING DOWN GOAT IS AN OPTION, SORRY FOR MY ENGLISH, IF THERE ARE ARE ISSUES I THINK WE CAN PLAN BETTER AND WORK OUT THE ISSUES.

>> HELLO MY NAME IS ROGER. I MOVED HERE ONE MONTH AGO. MY FRIEND AND I WE WALKED DOWNTOWN AND WE SEE ALL OF THESE WONDERFUL ESTABLISHMENTS AND WE LOOK AND WE SAY WHAT IS THE DEAL WITH GOAT. WE GOT SOME BACKGROUND. I AM FLABBERGASTED.

THIS MAN HAS INVESTED A TON OF MONEY INTO THIS PLACE. I WENT DOWNTOWN ON FRIDAY, I DRANK, I WALKED AROUND, AND I PARTIED UNTIL LATE. I WENT DOWNTOWN ON SATURDAY, I DID NOT DRINK. I WENT BY CONDOS ECHOING DOWN THE MIDTOWN AREA.

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE? IF THERE ARE ISSUES WE CAN WORK THEM OUT.

BUT I THINK WE NEED TO IMPROVE THE ZONING SO HE CAN RECOUP THE MONEY HE HAS PUT INTO THIS BUSINESS. SUNDAY NIGHT, I WENT TO PORCH FAST.

YOU KNOW WHAT THERE WERE A LOT OF POLICE OFFICES DOWN THERE, DOING THEIR JOB, WHY ARE THEY NOT THERE CURTAILING THE ISSUES LIKE THEY SUPPORT OTHER BUSINESSES.

I HOPE THE COMMISSION WILL KEEP IT. >> IS THERE ANYONE ELSE THAT WOULD LIKE TO BE HEARD THIS EVENING? THERE HAS BEEN WRITTEN CORRESPONDENCE SUBMITTED, FOR THE RECORD AS WELL AND I WOULD ASK THE SECRETARY TO GIVE A

RECAP OF THAT. >> WE HAVE PRINTED COPIES HERE THIS HAS ALSO BEEN SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD. IN FAVOR AND OPPOSITION, EVERYTHING IS IN THE RECORD AND BEING CONSIDERED BY MEMBERS OF THE COMMISSION FOR THIS PETITION.

[00:50:03]

YET 5 MINUTES. >> THANK YOU. WHAT WE HAVE HEARD TONIGHT, RUNS THE GAMUT FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE WILDLY SUPPORTIVE AND THOSE WHO RAISE IN MANY CASES VALID CONCERNS ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED LAST SUMMER. NOTHING WE HEARD THIS EVENING WAS A SURPRISE. IN PARTICULAR, THE CONCERNS ABOUT PUBLIC SAFETY AND ABOUT ROWDY AND DISRESPECTFUL PATRONS HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED AND WITH ALL DUE RESET -- RESPECT ADDRESS. LAST SUMMER WAS UNIQUE IN A NUMBER OF RESPECTS.

OBVIOUSLY, THE PANDEMIC ALTERED LIVE BUT THE GOAT WAS ALLOWED TO OPEN BEFORE INDIANAPOLIS BARS COULD REOPEN. THAT MEANT THE MANAGEMENT OF THE GOAT AND AS THE BAR MANAGER INDICATED, WAS CAUGHT UNPREPARED FOR A TREMENDOUS INFLUX OF BUSINESS.

MY UNDERSTANDING, AND I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY THE EFFORTS PUT INTO PLACE BY HIM AND HIS TEAM AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE, BECAUSE ALL OF THOSE CONCERNS TO SUBSIDE TO THE EXTENT THAT THE GOAT WAS NO LESS RESPONSIBLE FOR ROWDY BEHAVIOR AND NOISE THAN ANY OF THE OTHER BARS IN MIDTOWN.

I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY OTHER EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY. I SEE NO EVIDENCE TO SUGGEST THAT IF THIS POSITION IS REOPENED, BUSINESS ACTIVITY, THE NOISE, ANY NUISANCE WOULD BE ANY GREATER AT THE GOAT WOULD BE ANY DIFFERENT. AS YOU HAVE HEARD THIS EVENING THE GOAT HAS BEEN CLOSED FOR THE BETTER PART OF A YEAR END THERE STILL REMAINS ROWDY PATRONS IN MIDTOWN. I WOULD EXPECT THAT THE OWNERS OF THOSE ESTABLISHMENTS WOULD ALSO DO THEIR BEST TO CURTAIL THOSE PROBLEMS AND BE GOOD NEIGHBORS.

MY POINT IN BRINGING THIS UP, ALL MY CLIENT WANTS IS TO BE TREATED LIKE THE OTHER BAR OWNERS IN MIDTOWN CARMEL AND NOT TO BE SINGLED OUT, BASED ON 2-3 MONTHS OF BEHAVIOR BY PATRONS WHEN THEY WERE CAUGHT UNAWARE DURING A ONCE IN A LIFETIME SITUATION.

THE FINAL POINT, MY UNDERSTANDING, AND I WILL INVITE ANYONE TO CORRECT ME, THE REPRESENTATIVES WHO SPOKE EARLIER ARE THE PROCESS OF OPENING A COLLEGE BAR CALLED THE SOCIAL CANTINA IN THE BUILDING DIRECTLY ACROSS THE STREET FROM THE GOAT.

IF I AM MISTAKEN I WANT SOMEONE TO CORRECT ME. I WOULD SUGGEST, THAT THEY HAVE THEIR OWN PARTICULAR INTEREST IN HAVING THE GOAT STAY CLOSED AND THE SOCIAL CANTINA, WHEN IT OPENS WILL IN ITSELF BE A LATE NIGHT, OUTDOOR TAVERN ALONG THE TRAIL.

I ASKED THE COMMISSIONERS TO DELIBERATE. THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION AND

THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION. >> THANK YOU.

NOW WE WILL. >> TONIGHT THE PETITIONER IS SEEKING A REZONE.

WE HAVE TRIED TO LOOK AT THE PETITION I HOPE YOU CAN SEE THIS IN THE REPORT AND THE ANALYSIS THAT WAS GIVEN. WE CANNOT IGNORE THE HISTORY OF THE SITE.

THIS IS THE PROPOSAL AS PRESENTED. FIRST, THE PETITIONER DID NOT DISCUSS WITH STAFF PRIOR TO FILING THE REZONE PETITION THAT THIS WAS THEIR DESIRE AND PLAN FOR MOVING FORWARD WITH THE SITE. THIS WAS CHOSEN AND NO CLARIFICATION AS TO WHY IT WAS CHOSEN. WHY IT WAS SELECTED, SUPPORTING DOCUMENTATION THE QUESTIONS OF HOW IS THIS APPROPRIATE, AFTER THE DEPARTMENT REPORT THE

[00:55:01]

THAT IS KEY TO ADDRESSING THE CONCERNS OF THE PAST AND PROVIDING ASSURANCES THAT WHAT WAS BILLED HERE OR WHAT WILL BE BILLED HERE MEETS THE UDO AND WILL FIT IN WITH THE SURROUNDING AREA. IT WILL PROVIDE NOTICE TO GIVE NEIGHBORS A CHANCE TO SEE WHAT IS PROPOSED. THIS IS SOMETHING THE PETITIONER HAS NOT YET ADDRESSED ABOUT HAVING A DEVELOPMENT PLAN. WE SUGGESTED B7, EARLY ON IN THE PROCESS.

THE LIST OF USES ARE MORE APPROPRIATE IT DOES REQUIRE A DEVELOPMENT PLAN, THE INTENT OF THAT DISTRICT IS MORE AND LONG -- IN LINE WITH RESIDENTIAL USES.

THE CONCERNS STILL EXIST FOR FIXING THE PAST ISSUES AND WHETHER OR NOT COMMITMENTS WOULD BE PART OF THE PROPOSAL. WITH THAT, I WILL CLOSE AND RECOMMEND SENDING THIS TO THE

COMMERCIAL COMMITTEE ON TUESDAY OCTOBER 5, FOR FURTHER REVIEW. >> THANK YOU.

>> WE WILL CLOSE THE PUBLIC HEARING AT 6:58 P.M. WE WILL CONTINUE WITH DISCUSSION

QUESTIONS. >> WAS IT EVER DISCUSSED THAT THIS WOULD BE C2 ZONING?

>> NOT FOR THIS PROPOSAL. THE C2 ZONE CAN ONLY BE BROUGHT FORWARD BY THE CITY, AND WE DID NOT KNOW THEY WOULD REZONE, THEY JUST DID NOT TELL US THEY JUST FILED THE APPLICATION THERE WAS

NO DISCUSSION ABOUT WHAT THE PLAN WAS GOING FORWARD. >> IS THAT STILL AN OPTION IN

THE FUTURE FOR THIS PIECE OF LAND? >> POSSIBLY.

BUT AT THE TIME -- >> CAN I ASK A CLARIFICATION QUESTION.

FOR THE SAKE OF CONVERSATION, C2 INVOLVES A PUBLIC-PRIVATE PARTNERSHIP ON THE PARCEL?

>> YES IT DOES. >> IT COULD. THIS IS A NEW DEVELOPMENT SUCH AS, THE PROJECT TO THE SOUTH THAT WAS OWNED C2 THAT WAS A PRIVATE PARTNERSHIP.

>> OKAY. >> A LOT OF GOOD COMMENTS ON BOTH SIDES.

I APPRECIATE EVERYONE PROVIDING INPUT. IF I'M LOOKING AT THIS PARCEL AND I WILL TAKE GOAT OUT OF THE EQUATION AND SAY WHAT SHOULD IT BE ZONE.

I THINK I AGREE WITH STAFF THAT B2 IS NOT THE CORRECT ZONING FOR THIS.

WHEN I THINK ABOUT IT WILL -- WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT JUST THIS OWNER, THIS WILL STAY THE ZONING FOR THIS OWNER IF HE SELLS IT TO THE NEXT OWNER, AND FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.

A LOT OF THE REASONS IN B2 ARE NOT APPROPRIATE IF THEY ARE NEXT TO RESIDENTIAL.

[01:00:03]

TRUCK REPAIR, RESTAURANTS TO DRIVE THROUGH. SO FORTH AND SO ON.

THIS IS DOWNTOWN OR MIDTOWN AND THIS IS METICULOUSLY PLANNED THOUGH ASKING FOR DEVELOP PLANNING IS REASONABLE. I DON'T SEE HOW J-14 WOULD FIT. WERE NOT TALKING ABOUT JUST THIS PROPERTY WERE TALKING ABOUT THIS WOULD BE THE ZONING RUNNING WITH THE LAND.

I THINK THAT DISCUSSIONS WHETHER IT IS B7 OR RESIDENTIAL. ASSAYS RESIDENTIAL.

IF I LOOK AT THE C2 AND COMPARE THE USES ARE MORE SIMILAR -- (SPEAKING AWAY FROM MICROPHONE).

>> I DON'T SEE HOW B2 WOULD WORK IT'S NOT JUST THIS PROPERTY, IT WOULD BE FUTURE PROPERTIES.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GOAT. I THINK PERHAPS, THE COMMERCIAL

COMMITTEE, I THINK THAT IS THE DISCUSSION. >> I FEEL INCLINED TO POINT OUT THAT I THINK THE CITY IS TAKING IT ON THE CHIN, FOR THE SAKE OF CONVERSATION AND THE POINT OF CLARITY, I WANT TO REMIND US ALL, EVERYONE SITTING UP. THE GALLERY THAT, AT THE POINT OF TIME, LET ME BACK UP. THE CITY OF CARMEL TRIES TO BE PRO-BUSINESS AT EVERY TURN THAT IT MAKES. AS A RESULT, I THINK BURKART GOT IN FRONT OF THE HORSE.

IN AN EFFORT TO BE PRO-BUSINESS HELP A BUSINESS OPENED DURING WHAT WE CAN ALL ONLY PRAY IS THE WORST THING WE EVER SAW IN OUR LIFETIMES. I THINK THE CITY IS TAKING IT ON THE CHIN RIGHT NOW NOBODY IS POINT OUT THE FACT THAT I BELIEVE THE CITY AND THE PETITIONER, WENT INTO THIS RELATIONSHIP WITH THE BEST OF INTENTIONS, AND I WILL LEAVE IT

AT THAT. >> MR. PRESIDENT. >> I THINK IT WILL BE IMPERATIVE FROM WHAT I AM HEARING, THAT THE STAFF AND THE PETITIONER HAVE CONVERSATIONS BEFORE THIS COME TO COMMITTEE. I DON'T KNOW WE WOULD DO THIS WITHOUT A DEVELOPMENT PLAN.

I'M JUST ASKING THE STAFF AND PETITIONER TO HAVE CONVERSATIONS BECAUSE RIGHT NOW WILL BE REALLY

CONFUSING. >> IS THERE A CHANCE THAT B7 CAN BE DISCUSSED THAT COMMITTEE? CHAIR SINCE I WAS A DIRECT QUESTION, CAN YOU INDULGE ME. I WORK WITH TONY AND DAVE ON THIS PETITION. THE SHORT ANSWER IS JUST, WE ARE OPEN TO A DISCUSSION OF WHAT THE COMMITMENT SHOULD BE CONSISTENT WITH THE AREA AND OTHER RESTAURANTS, BARS AND TAVERNS IN THE AREA. I WILL.OUT ONE OF THE KEY DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THEM IS THAT, TAVERN AND NIGHTCLUB, AS A USE, IS NOT PART OF B7. IT IS SPECIFICALLY NOT.

THE CONCERN THERE IS, WHAT THE YOU SEE IS COULD INCLUDE THE BAR TAVERN KIND OF USED BEEN B2 IS MORE APPROPRIATE. THAT IS PART OF THE LOGIC WITH GOING WITH B2 INSTEAD OF B7.

IF WE CAN GET TO THAT RESULT, WITH USING B7 AN ADDITIONAL COMMITMENT FROM THE CITY AND ALLOWING THAT, THOSE ARE CONVERSATIONS WE CAN HAVE. IT JUST SEEMS TO ME, B2 AND

[01:05:01]

COMMIT DOWN FROM THERE MAKES MORE SENSE THAN STARTING WITH B. >> IF THERE IS A POSSIBILITY OF A D7 DISCUSSION I AGREE WITH WHAT MR. RYDER SAID. I WOULD LIKE THE PETITIONER AND THE DEPARTMENT TO SEE WHAT THEY CAN WORK OUT. PRIOR TO GOING TO COMMITTEE I

PERSONALLY DON'T THINK WE HAVE ANYWHERE TO GO. >> THANK YOU.

>> ALLEN AND THEN CHRISTINE. >> THE PROBLEM SUE, DOING WHAT YOU ARE ASKING IS, WE LISTEN TO A PUBLIC HEARING TONIGHT IN WHICH THE B2 WAS EMPLOYED. WE HAD STAFF RECOMMENDATIONS BASED UPON A B2. THE PURPOSE OF THE COMMITTEE HEARING IS FOR THE COMMISSIONERS AS A PART OF THAT COMMITTEE, TO STUDY WHAT WE HAVE HEARD, AND MAKE A RECOMMENDATION.

AND I'M NOT TALKING DOWN TO YOU, I AM JUST EXPLAINING IT. TO GO INTO THE COMMITTEE AND ALL OF A SUDDEN SWITCH AND NEGOTIATE WHAT WE WILL NOW CONSIDER, WE HAVE TO CONSIDER ALL OF THE B'S, THE PETITIONER CAME IN WITH A REQUEST FOR B2 ZONING. THAT IS A PROBLEM, TO COME TO COMMITTEE AND START NEGOTIATING WHAT WE WILL HEAR AFTER THE STAFF HAS HEARD IT, THE PUBLIC HEARING IS NOW CLOSED AND IT CHANGES THE ASPECT OF WHAT WE ARE HEARING NOW.

RATHER THAN DO THAT, THIS DISCUSSION SHOULD HAVE TAKEN PLACE, AS RACHEL SAID, WHEN SHE MADE THE RECOMMENDATION TO DO THIS, TO MAKE A RECOMMENDATION WITH THE FULL COMMITTEE.

I WOULD NOT BE IN FAVOR OF THAT. >> YOU ARE RIGHT. I WAS LOOKING FOR SOME KIND OF A NEGOTIATION. I CHANGED AND I AGREE WITH WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.

I'M LOOKING AT IT LIKE, TO MAYBE TAKE A VOTE TONIGHT ON A J-14 AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

MAYBE NOT GO TO COMMITTEE. I CAN GO EITHER WAY ON THAT. I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING

ALAN. >> I HAVE A QUESTION ON THE B2 AND THIS IS WHERE LEGAL.

IF IT IS B2 AND THEY STRIKE ALL OF THE USES, HOW IS THAT ACCOMPLISHED IS IT THROUGH DEED RESTRICTIONS? HOW IS IT ACCOMPLISHED SO IF THERE IS A CHANGE?

>> IT WOULD BE DONE THROUGH COMMITMENTS. IN THIS CASE IT WOULD BE A VOLUNTARY COMMITMENT AND THEY ARE VOLUNTARILY STRIKING OUT THE USE.

AS FAR AS I UNDERSTAND, IT IS VOLUNTEERING THROUGH A COMMISSION.

>> WOULD BE THROUGH COMMITMENTS AT THE BACK IN AND COUNSEL CAN STRIKE THEM OR ADD ADDITIONAL'S

AS WELL. BUT THIS IS HOW IT WILL BE DONE. >> THE COMMITMENTS WOULD APPLY,

JUST TO THIS PETITIONER? >> IT WILL APPLY, TO THE REZONE PROPERTY.

>> IT I THINK IT IS OBVIOUS FROM WHAT WE HAVE HEARD TONIGHT AND THE LAST SEVERAL MONTHS ABOUT THIS PROPERTY, AND WHAT IS INCLUDED IN THE DEPARTMENT REPORT.

THE ISSUES TO ADDRESS HERE EXTEND FAR BEYOND THE SCOPE OF THE IT SPEAKS TO LAND USE IT IS ABOUT PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICS. WHAT'S IMPORTANT IS THE BEHAVIORAL CHARACTERISTICS.

NOISE, PATRON BEHAVIOR, HOURS, ALL OF THOSE THINGS THAT HAVE CREATED THIS ISSUE.

THOSE ARE POSSIBLE TO BE ADDRESSED THROUGH COMMITMENTS, BUT THEY REALLY EXPAND, I THINK FAR BEYOND OUR REVIEW AND BEYOND OUR ROLE AS AN ADVISORY PLAN COMMISSION.

[01:10:01]

ONLY THE CITY COUNCIL DOES THAT. WE MAY SUBMIT A RECOMMENDATION TO THE COUNCIL, HOW WE FEEL BUT THE COUNCIL WILL ACT TO EITHER REZONE THE PROPERTY OR NOT REZONE THE PROPERTY.

IT IS THE COUNCIL WHO HAS, IN ITS TOOLKIT, THE ABILITY TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEMS THAT HAVE ARISEN THE BEHAVIORAL PROBLEMS SURROUNDING THIS PROPERTY. I WOULD LOVE TO LOOK AT THIS OBJECTIVELY AS A PARCEL OF DIRT. BUT THAT IS PUTTING WINDERS ON AND IGNORING EVERYTHING AT ISSUE. SO, TO ME, TO COME UP WITH A COMPREHENSIVE SOLUTION REQUIRES MORE THAN WE HAVE AT OUR DISPOSAL AS MEMBER -- MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE.

I THINK ENFORCEMENT OF CITY ORDINANCES AND MAKING A SOLUTION THAT WORKS FOR EVERYONE.

I'M WILLING AND SUPPORTIVE OF OUR COMMERCIAL COMMITTEE ROLLING UP THEIR SLEEVES.

THE DEPARTMENT KEEPING THEIR SLEEVES ROLLED UP. THE PETITIONER COOPERATING FURTHER AS WELL TO DO THE BEST WE CAN FROM A ZONING AND PLANNING PERSPECTIVE, BUT NOT IF WE WILL ENTER INTO THE PROCESS THINKING WE WILL COME UP WITH A COMPREHENSIVE SOLUTION THAT WILL TAKE THE HELP OF THE CITY COUNCIL. WHETHER THE REST OF YOU AGREE WITH ME ON THAT, AND WANT TO ROLL UP OUR SLEEVES RIGHT HERE STARTING WITH THE NEXT MEETING, THAT WOULD BE GREAT, IF THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT REQUIRES MORE COUNSEL ACTION THEN OTHERS

THAT'S ANOTHER QUESTION WE WILL DECIDE TONIGHT. >> HE MADE A GOOD POINT, IF THIS WAS TO CHANGE FROM B2 TO B HAVE AN WE WOULD HAVE TO ADD ANOTHER PUBLIC HEARING AND IT WOULD HAVE

TO BE NOTICE PERIOD. >> IS THERE OTHER DISCUSSION FOR THIS EVENING?

IS THERE A MOTION? >> MR. PRESIDENT, CLARIFYING WHAT I SAID, IF WE TAKE A MOTION AND SEND THIS TO COMMERCIAL COMMITTEE IT WILL BE B2. IT WILL NOT CHANGE.

I THINK THAT NEEDS TO BE A DISCUSSION BETWEEN STAFF AND THE PETITIONER.

BUT ONE OPTION WOULD BE TO TABLE IT AND SEE WHERE THEY WANT TO GO.

I WILL MAKE THAT AS A MOTION. >> THE MOTION IS TO TABLE IT TONIGHT I WILL SECOND THAT.

>> THANK YOU. NO DISCUSSION ON THE MOTION WE WILL VOTE ON THE MOTION TO TABLE

AND PROVIDE TIME TO ADDRESS THE B2 VERSUS B7. >> TO CLARIFY BEFORE WE VOTE, WE PUT A LOT OF CONFIDENCE AND OUR STAFF, RIGHT NOW, STAFF IS RECOMMENDING NOT SUPPORTING B2.

THAT IS WHY I THINK THIS DISCUSSION, TO BE FAIR TO EVERYONE, IT NEEDS TO COME BACK, I'M NOT TRYING TO DELAY THIS OR KICK THE CAN DOWN THE ROAD BUT WE PUT A LOT OF CONFIDENCE IN

STAFF, I AM JUST TRYING TO BE FAIR. >> THANK YOU.

>> ALONG WITH HIS STATEMENT, STAFF, AGAIN, WE ARE NOT HERE TO NEGOTIATE.

YOU ARE, THAT IS WHAT YOU DO, I WOULD HOPE THAT IF THIS DOES COME BACK, AND FOR SOME REASON IT TAKES ON THE ITERATION OF SOMETHING OTHER THAN B2, TO CHRISTINE'S POINT, IF THERE ARE A BUNCH OF USES THAT NEED TO BE EXCLUSIVE IS OR RECOMMENDED, IT IS BROUGHT TO THE ATTENTION OF

[01:15:13]

>> WE DO HAVE ALL MOTION ON THE TABLE. QUESTIONS? ASKED THAT WE ALL VOTE. ALL IN FAVOR OF TABLING SIGNIFY BY SAYING AYE.

ANY OPPOSED? WE DO HAVE ONE VOTE. SO THE MOTION CARRIES, THIS WILL BE TABLED UNTIL THE DEPARTMENT, AND THE PETITIONER HAS A CHANCE TO TALK FURTHER IN THE PETITIONER IS PREPARED TO RETURN THE PETITION TO THE FULL COMMISSION FOR FURTHER CONSIDERATION. IS THERE ANY OTHER BUSINESS? I SEE NONE THEN WE WILL BE ADJOURNED,

* This transcript was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.