Mar 11, 2025 Finance, Utilities and Rules Committee Meeting

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MARCH 11TH FINANCE, UTILITIES AND RULES COMMITTEE. THE PURPOSE OF THE MEETING TODAY IS TO DISCUSS ORDINANCE, KICK OFF THE ANALYSIS OF THE COMMITTEE, AND REVIEWING CITY CODE FOR POSSIBLE CHANGES AS

[a. Ordinance D-2767-25; An Ordinance of the Common Council of the City of Carmel, Indiana, Amending Chapter 2, Article 4, Section 2-96 of the Carmel City Code; Sponsor(s): Councilor(s) Taylor and Snyder.]

WE WILL KICK IT OVER TO YOU FOR YOUR PRESENTATION ON RATES, IF YOU'RE READY.

>> YES, GOOD EVENING, CARMEL CHIEF, CARMEL FIRE DEPARTMENT.

WE'RE EMAILING YOU BECAUSE WE WANT TO LOOK AT SOME KEY SCHEDULES HERE. YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO SEE THIS, I APOLOGIZE, TOO SMALL. IT SHOULD BE COMING THROUGH TO YOUR EMAIL.

OH, WOW, LOOK AT THAT, TECHNOLOGY.

SO THIS IS AN UPDATED SCHEDULE OF SURROUNDING FIRE DEPARTMENT FEES, AND THIS IS THEIR 2024 RATES. WHAT'S HIGHLIGHTED IS THE CARMEL RATE. AND IT'S OUR 2025.

SO AGAIN, WE'VE SENT THIS TO YOU, AND I THINK -- AND WE HAVE THE RATES OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS, AS WELL. SO YOU CAN KIND OF SEE, WE'RE VERY LOW. COMPARED TO OTHER RATES AROUND.

SO, JUST BREAKING DOWN -- SO A B.L.S. NONEMERGENT CALL , B.L.S.

EMERGENT, AND IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE NONEMERGENT ON HERE AND THE EMERGENT?

>> REMINDER, THE NONEMERGENT IS WE GET CALLED TO WHAT'S CONSIDERED A -- CLASSIFIED AS A HOSPITAL. SO IT WOULD BE LIKE A REHAB FACILITY. THEN WE TAKE A PATIENT FROM THERE TO ANOTHER HOSPITAL FACILITY. WE HAVE A NONEMERGENT FEE IN OUR ORDINANCE WE CAN BILL --

>> GET A LITTLE CLOSER.

>> I'M SORRY. IF WE GET DISPATCHED TO A FACILITY THAT'S CONSIDERED OR CLASSIFIED AS A HOSPITAL, LIKE A REHAB FACILITY, SOMEBODY'S IN REHAB FROM A STROKE, SURGERY, SOMETHING LIKE THAT, WE TAKE THAT PATIENT FROM THERE TO ANOTHER HOSPITAL FACILITY, TECHNICALLY WE CAN'T BILL FOR THAT, THE PATIENT FOR THAT, BECAUSE -- THERE'S A LOT OF THE LANGUAGE, BUT THIS ALLOWS THE BILLING FOR THAT TO TAKE PLACE, IS MY UNDERSTANDING.

>> AND THAT IS -- THAT IS A NEW RATE FOR CARMEL FIRE DEPARTMENT IN 2025. B.L.S. 911 CALL COMPARED TO OTHERS THAT, YOU KNOW, WE WERE AT -- FOR RESIDENT RATE IS $656, NONRESIDENT RATE $856. YOU CAN SEE SOME OTHER START AT $1,000, $1,700, $1,800. NOW, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A RESIDENT AND NONRESIDENT IN CARMEL IS, IF YOU QUALIFY FOR RESIDENT IF YOU ARE A HOOSIER.

IF YOU HAVE AN ADDRESS WITHIN THE STATE OF INDIANA. OTHER COMMUNITIES, IF IT'S OUTSIDE THAT CITY, THEY BILL AT A NONRESIDENT RATE.

SO THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE COULD DISCUSS AND LOOK AT FROM THAT STANDPOINT.

OUR A.L.S. EMERGENT AND A.L.S. EMERGENT 2 IS JUST THE -- THE DIFFERENCE THERE IS THE LEVEL OF OF÷÷ PROVIDED, THE NUMBER OF SKILLS.

WHERE A.L.S. EMERGENT, YOU KNOW, IF THAT WAS A -- WE PROVIDE AN I.V., CARDIAC MONITORING THAT

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SO, MULTIPLE ADVANCE LIFE SUPPORT SKILLS.

WE DO HAVE A TREATMENT, NO TRANSPORT. SO WHAT HAPPENS THERE IS, AN INDIVIDUAL -- COULD BE A DIABETIC. SO WE RESPOND AND WE PROVIDE SOME INTRAVENOUS SUGAR.

SOME OTHER TYPE OF SUPPORT. THEY WAKE UP, THEY DON'T WANT TO GO TO THE HOSPITAL, THEY SIGN A MEDICAL RELEASE. WE'RE ABLE TO BILL FOR OUR TIME AND OUR EQUIPMENT THERE. YOU SEE OUR MILEAGE RATE.

THEN COLLECTIONS, WHETHER INTERNAL OR EXTERNAL.

WE HAVE OUR OWN BILLING INTERNALLY CURRENTLY.

THE COLUMN LIFT ASSIST IS INTERESTING WE'D LIKE TO DISCUSS. 6,000 MEDICAL CALLS IN 2024, 1,100 OF THOSE WERE FALLS, LIFT ASSISTS, WHERE, YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY WE UNDERSTAND RESPONDING TO AN INDIVIDUAL RESIDENCE WHERE THEY NEED HELP. BUT WHEN WE'RE RESPONDING TO A CARE FACILITY AND WE ARRIVE ON SCENE AND THERE'S MULTIPLE PEOPLE THAT COULD BE ELIGIBLE TO HELP THIS INDIVIDUAL UP, BUT FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER CANNOT, WE GO THERE, WE PUT THEM BACK IN A CHAIR, IN BED, CHECK THEM OUT, MAKE SURE THEY'RE OKAY. AND WE CURRENTLY DON'T BILL FOR THAT. BUT SOME OTHER COMMUNITIES HAVE STARTED TO BILL THE CARE FACILITIES THEMSELVES INSTEAD OF THE PATIENT FOR THAT. I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD LOOK AT. IT CERTAINLY IS TAXING OUR RESOURCES. AND FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER, THROUGH LEGAL MEANS, THE INDIVIDUALS WORKING AT THESE FACILITIES ARE TRAINED TO LIFT THEM UP AND PUT THEM BACK IN A CHAIR IN BED.

BUT THEY CAN'T. SO THEY HAVE TO CALL 911 TO DO THAT. AND CERTAINLY TRYING TO RECOUP SOME FUNDS FOR OUR TIME AND BEING THERE I THINK IS SOMETHING THAT I SUGGEST THAT WE LOOK AT TRYING TO INCORPORATE. NOT PASSING THAT ON TO THE CITIZEN IN THE PRIVATE RESIDENCE THAT NEEDS HELP WITH A FAMILY MEMBER.

THAT'S A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SCENARIO.

AND THEN DOWN AT THE BOTTOM, YOU CAN JUST SEE THE AVERAGE COST. AND THEN KIND OF WHERE WE FALL IN. SO, PROVIDE VERY HIGH LEVELLEVEL CARE. YOU KNOW, WE -- THE MAYOR HAS SHARED -- I THINK WE'VE SPOKEN BEFORE, YOU KNOW. OUR CARDIAC ARREST RATES.

SO WHEN WE RESPOND TO A CARDIAC ARREST AND WE OBTAIN PULSES BACK, SO WE CALL THAT R.O.S.S. , RETURN OF SPONTANEOUS CIRCULATION, OUR RATE IS 59%. ESPECIALLY IT'S 25 TO 30%.

I THINK JUST THE TRAINING THAT OUR MEN AND WOMEN GET, THE CARE PROVIDED, THE EXPERIENCE THAT THEY HAVE. AND IT IS A COLLABORATIVE EFFORT. I'M SO ENCOURAGED.

THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AND THE FIRE DEPARTMENT, HIGHWAY, WE WORK TOGETHER ON SCENES MUCH LIKE THIS. MANY TIMES WHEN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT RESPONDING ON CARDIAC ARREST, THEY'VE GOT THEIR A.E.D. IN THE BACK SEAT, GRABBING THAT, RUNNING IN. WE'VE HAD A NUMBER OF INCIDENTS WHERE THE POLICE DEPARTMENT HAVE ARRIVED FIRST, THEY'VE STARTED C.P.R. , THEY'VE PROVIDED A RELATION, AND CERTAINLY THAT PROVIDES AN INCREASED PERCENTAGE OF SURVIVAL THERE.

SO, I THINK IT'S JUST A GREAT TEAM EFFORT THERE.

BUT WE -- AND THEN THE CLASSES THAT WE PROVIDE, YOU KNOW, THE COMMUNITY C.P.R. CLASSES WE PROVIDE AND CONTINUE TO PUSH OUT MAKE A DIFFERENCE. BECAUSE A NUMBER OF TIMES OUR MEN AND WOMEN RESPOND THERE, AND THERE'S A CITIZEN ON THE SCENE PROVIDING C.P.R.

AGAIN, THE CHANCES OF SURVIVAL INCREASE DRAMATICALLY WHEN YOU HAVE SOMEONE ON THE SCENE THAT'S WILLING TO DO THAT. SO, QUESTIONS

ON? >> COUNCILOR GREEN?

>> YEAH. THANK YOU, CHIEF.

THESE NUMBERS ARE GREAT. MAKE SURE WHEN THIS GOES BACK TO THE FULL CITY COUNCIL, YOU KNOW, WE SHOW THIS TO EVERYBODY

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BUT IT'S HELPFUL IN COMPARING WHERE WE FALL WITH EVERYBODY ELSE.

SO, AS YOU SAID, WE'RE KIND OF THIS THE LOWER PERCENTILE, 65TH, 67, 64. YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO ANSWER THIS, BUT I KNOW WE HAVE THE CITY'S OUTSTANDING CHIEF FINANCIAL OFFICER IN THE CROWD WHO MIGHT, YOU KNOW, BE ABLE TO WEIGH IN, CHIEF, IF YOU CAN'T. BUT -- ALL RIGHT, SO -- THE AMBULANCE FUND IS SELF- SELF-SUSTAINING? IS THAT TRUE?

>> YEAH, AND IF I CAN -- SO I --

>> THANK YOU.

>> WE CAN PROBABLY ZOOM BACK OUT, BECAUSE I CREATED FONT. NE IN A LITTLE DIFFERENT - IF YOU CAN LOOK AT INCOME OVER EXPENSES 2019 TO 2024. SO, JUST 2020 WAS THE YEAR THAT WE OVERSPENT WHAT WAS COLLECTED.

>> MAKES SENSE.

>> IN A YEAR. YOU SEE THAT AMBULANCE FUND'S CONTINUING TO GROW. AND WE HAVE STABILIZED THOSE EXPENSES. I THINK WE CAN DO EVEN MORE.

ZACH AND I HAVE DISCUSSED, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE ITEMS THAT WE'RE PURCHASING OUT OF THE AMBULANCE FUND, WHAT SOME OF THE POLICY WAS IN THE PAST THAT AS WE LOOK AT 2026, BUDGETING, YOU KNOW, I THINK SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WE'RE SPENDING OUT OF THE AMBULANCE FUND WE CAN SHIFT BACK TO GENERAL FUND. SUPPLY DOLLARS THERE.

AND REALLY JUST ENSURING THAT THE AMBULANCE FUND IS USED FOR E.M.S. SUPPLIES AND THEN CAPITAL PROJECTS. THEN YOU DID MAKE SOME CHANGES IN 2025, ZACH. YOU MIGHT WANT TO

ADDRESS? >> IF I CAN, MR. CHAIRMAN.

YEAH, SO TO THE POINT THERE WITH THE AMBULANCE FUND, AGAIN, AS THE CHIEF HAS MENTIONED, THE REVENUES ARE FROM THE AMBULANCE BILLING. IN MY MIND, CALLING IT THE AMBULANCE FUND MIGHT BE A LITTLE BIT OF A MISNOMER, BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE THE REVENUE IS COMING FROM, BUT THAT REALLY ISN'T HOW WE SPEND IT. WE CALL THE AMBULANCE THE CAPITAL FUND, AND THE CAPITAL PART IS PROBABLY THE BETTER NAME FOR IT. EVERY OTHER DEPARTMENT HAS, YOU KNOW, FOUR APPROPRIATIONS, IF YOU WILL. THE PERSONAL SERVICES, SUPPLIES, OTHER SERVICES AND FEES, THEN CAPITAL OUTLAYS.

FIRE DEPARTMENT GETS NOTHING FOR CAPITAL OUTLAYS FROM THE GENERAL FUND. THIS IS WHERE THAT'S PAID FOR FROM. SO IT IS THE -- THE EQUIPMENT THAT THEY'RE BUYING ON A DAILY BASIS AS WELL AS CAPITAL LEASE PAYMENTS FOR SOME OF THEIR BIGGER EQUIPMENT. WE DID, AS PART OF THE L.G.O.

BOND, REFINANCE SOME OF THE DEBT, THE CAPITAL LEASE DEBT THAT THEY HAD, IN ORDER TO FREE UP ABOUT $500,000 A YEAR.

AT THAT POINT, THAT'S KIND OF WHERE I WAS SEEING A STRUCTURAL GAP OF ABOUT A HALF MILLION A YEAR. I'M NOT -- I BELIEVE WE'VE FIXED IT OR AT LEAST COME CLOSE TO CLOSING THE GAP.

BUT IT'S PROBABLY SOMETHING WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LOOK AT ON AN ONGOING BASIS, JUST TO SEE HOW OUR REVENUE'S COMING IN, HOW OUR EXPENSE IS GOING OUT. I THINK THAT THE FUND IS IN DECENT SHAPE AT THE MOMENT.

BUT -- CLEARLY COSTS ARE GOING UP, AND IT'S -- MAKES SENSE TO ADJUST THESE RATES FROM TIME TO

TIME. >> COUNCILOR LOCKE?

>> I HAVE LIKE 50 MILLION QUESTIONS.

BUT WE'RE HERE TO DISCUSS IT, SO THAT'S A JOY.

FINANCIAL QUESTION ON IT. I'M JUST WONDERING THE BREAKDOWN, THE TWO SOURCES OF REVENUE FOR THIS ARE THE SERVICES THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ON THE CHART, AND THEN A TAX FROM THE COUNTY, IS THAT RIGHT? THAT WE COLLECT? AND I'M LOOKING AT THIS KIND OF FRESH, KNOWING THAT WE'RE DOING THIS IN COMMITTEE TO KIND OF GATHER INFORMATION,

BUT -- >> I'M UNFAMILIAR WITH THAT SECOND PART THAT YOU MENTIONED THERE.

>> IT'S THE COUNTY EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICE TAX.

WHICH IS -- IT'S JUST IN OUR

CODE. >> OKAY.

>> AS A SOURCE OF REVENUE FOR THIS FUND.

>> I'LL HAVE TO DOUBLE-CHECK. I DON'T BELIEVE WE'RE ACTUALLY RECEIVING ANY REVENUE FROM THAT, BUT I'LL CONFIRM THAT.

>> YEAH. YEAH.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE CODE AND AMENDING IT. LIKE WONDERING IF SO WE KNOW WHAT KIND OF RUNS WE'RE MAKING AND HOW THIS FUND IS SET UP. I LOVE THIS IDEA OF GETTING BACK TO THE BASICS OF BEING THAT CAPITAL FUND THAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE AND THEN PAYING FOR SERVICES RELATED. BUT KNOWING WHERE TO KIND OF SET OUR NUMBERS, I THINK, KNOWING WHAT TYPES OF THINGS

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WE MIGHT NOT HAVE IT TODAY. AND THEN I DO HAVE JUST -- THIS MIGHT BE FOR LEGAL. HOW DO WE GET HERE? HOW DO WE DET SET THIS? MAYBE THERE'S EXTRA RESEARCH HERE, TOO. HOW DO THESE RATES GET SET IN OTHER PLATES TO KIND OF CONTINUE TO GROW, OR IS IT AN ANNUAL THING? LET'S START WITH MY FIRST LINE OF QUESTIONING AND SEE IF WE END UP AT LEGAL AT SOME POINT.

>> SO, GREAT QUESTIONS. AND WE CAN CERTAINLY BREAK OUT BY -- YOU KNOW, THIS IS JUST 2024 INFORMATION.

NOW, IT DOESN'T BREAK OUT SPECIFICALLY B.L.S. , RESIDENT, NONRESIDENT, BUT WE CAN DO THAT. SO WE CAN BREAK OUT EVERY CALL, STRUCTURE, AND KNOW CHARGE AND HOW MUCH WAS BILLED AND COLLECTED FOR THAT. AND I LOVE THAT KIND OF DATA.

SO, WE'LL CERTAINLY PUT THAT BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE LOOK AT -- THIS WAS PRODUCED BY ANOTHER FIRE DEPARTMENT. MAINLY TO SEE -- TO LOOK AT THEIR RATES AND HOW THEY SHOULD ESTABLISH RATES IN THEIR JURISDICTIONS.

I THINK USING PERCENTAGES OF MEDICARE AND MEDICAID REIMBURSEMENT IS IMPORTANT WHEN WE LOOK AT THAT. AND THEN AS WE WERE -- WHAT WE'LL SEND OUT -- TRYING TO REALLY BREAK DOWN IN DETAIL COST ESTIMATE PER TRANSPORT.

SO LOOKING AT THE INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE WORKING ON THE TRUCK. SO SALARY THERE, FUEL USAGE.

WE WERE ABLE TO KIND OF BREAK DOWN SOFT SUPPLIES.

LOOKING AT RECLASSYING. SO WE'VE KIND OF CHANGED UP AMBULANCE PURCHASES. RIGHT NOW IT'S TEN YEARS FRONT LINE, THEN WORK ON A RECHASSIS. AFTER THAT, CONTINUING KEEPING THAT, WHAT THE COST IS FOR THAT. WE'RE RIGHT AROUND -- BASED ON OUR BREAKDOWN, ABOUT $845. 25 PER TRANSPORT. BASED OFF OF 5,000 TRANSPORTS.

SO OF THE LITTLE OVER 6,000 E.M.S. CALLS, WE HAD 5,000 TRANSPORTS. AND SO UTILIZING, YOU KNOW, OUR COSTS AND TIME AND ALL THAT AND REALLY SETTING A GOOD RATE, THEN LOOKING AT WHAT WE'RE GOING TO BE REIMBURSED FOR, INSTEAD OF SAYING, OH, WELL, FIRE DEPARTMENT X CHARGES $1,200, LET'S CHARGE $1,200. I LIKE TO BE MORE DETAILED THAN THAT MAKING SURE THAT'S JUST NOT SOMETHING --

>> YEAH, JUST QUICK PHONE MATH, 5,000 RUNS AT 845 IS 4,200,000 DOLLARS, WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY MORE THAN KIND OF WE COLLECTED, WHICH -- NOT SAYING THAT THAT SHOULD BE OUR METRIC, WE'RE NOT IN THE BUSINESS OF MAKING REVENUE OFF OF THIS.

BUT JUST KIND OF WONDERING, LIKE STRUCTURALLY, THIS CAN'T BE A UNIQUE ISSUE. OBVIOUSLY SOMEBODY'S MADE A CHART BEFORE. BUT IF YOU BUILD KIND OF THAT CONSENSUS ON WHAT IT SHOULD BE OR IF THERE'S A RATE THAT YOU COULD RECOMMEND BASED ON SERVICE PROVISION OR WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE, THINKING LONGITUDINALLY ABOUT WHAT TYPE OF RUNS WE'RE MAKING THAT MIGHT BE DIFFERENT OR DISTINCT BECAUSE OF OUR MAKEUP RESIDENTIALLY VERSUS OTHER THINGS, I'D LOVE TO SEE KIND OF THAT PROCESS GO INTO IT.

AND THEN SETTING SOME KIND OF ESCALATOR. TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE KIND OF GROWING AT THE RIGHT RATE. OR IF IT'S SOMETHING WE TALK ABOUT EVERY YEAR, THAT WOULD BE GREAT, TOO.

>> ZACH?

>> IF I CAN JUST -- AND COUNCILOR, I THINK YOU'RE SPOT ON. JUST BECAUSE WE INCREASE OUR RATES DOESN'T MEAN THAT THE INSURANCE COMPANY IS GOING TO PAY US A DOLLAR MORE.

AND I THINK IN SOME YEARS WE'VE KIND OF EVEN SEEN THAT GAP GROW A LITTLE BIT. YEAH, OUR CHARGES HAVE GONE UP, BUT THE GAP BETWEEN CHARGE AND BILL -- BILLED AND RECEIVED IS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT.

>> I GUESS TO THAT, YEAH, JUST WONDERING -- OTHER SIDE OF THIS, OBVIOUSLY, IS THE INURANCE SIDE. WHAT WE CAN KIND OF BILL BACK, HOW THAT PROCESS WORKS. IT LOOKS LIKE WE'RE KIND OF UNIQUE IN DOING OUR CLAIMS DIVISION INTERNALLY, ACCORDING TO THE ONE- PAGE LIST THAT WAS THERE. BUT WONDERING HOW WE DO THAT. AND THEN I KNOW THAT THERE WAS CONVERSATIONS, AGREEMENTS SET UP

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AND I MIGHT BE COMPLETELY OFF BASE WITH HOW THAT KIND OF RELATIONSHIP IS SET UP. BUT JUST -- AGAIN, TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT ALL THE INFORMATION WE NEED TO KIND OF UNDERSTAND WHAT DECISION WE'RE MAKING NEEDS TO BE, WHICH NECESSARILY INCLUDES KIND OF THE END POINT OF THE DROPOFF. AND THEN THE INSURANCE QUESTION, I THINK, IS A HUGE ONE, TOO.

>> TO COUNCIL LOCKE'S POINT, DO WE HAVE TWO MAJOR HOSPITAL SYSTEMS IN OUR COMMITTEE. AT ONE TIME, ONE OF THE HOSPITAL SYSTEMS USED TO HAVE BRANDED -- OUR AMBULANCES USED TO BE BRANDED WITH ONE HOSPITAL SYSTEM BACK IN THE 20.

BACK IN 2005, '06, '07. I REMEMBER JOHN FOGEL, CLARION NORTH, THEY WERE PAYING PROPERTY TAXES. THAT'S A STICKING POINT FOR HIM, HE'S PAYING PROPERTY TAXES, THE OTHER HOSPITAL SYSTEM HAD THE LOGO ON THE AMBULANCES. I'M INTERESTED TO LEARN ABOUT THAT.

>> AND I'LL LET CHIEF YOUNG SPEAK TO THE WORK THEY'RE DOING THROUGH M.I.H.P. WITH ASCENSION AND I.U.

WAS YOUR QUESTION HOW WE TRANSPORT

AND -- >> YEAH, I GUESS IN THE CONTEXT -- BASE ZERO OF UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THIS IS. LIKE TRYING TO FIGURE ON THE WHAT THIS FUND IS FOR. AND THAT'S KIND OF THIS ORDINANCE. AND WE CAN SEE CAPITAL OUTLAY.

KIND OF THINGS RELATED TO AMBULANCE SERVICES.

BUT TRYING TO FIGURE OUT KIND OF WHAT THE RELATIONSHIPS ARE THAT CREATE, THIS IS A NEW REVENUE STREAM OR A REVENUE STREAM FOR THE CITY.

WE'RE PROVIDING THIS SERVICE. BUT WHO KIND OF ALL THE ACTORS ARE FROM THE STAT APPOINTED OF -- ALL 5,000 OF THOSE RUNS THAT ARE EMERGENCY RUNS OR NONEMERGENCY RUNS HAVE TO END UP AT A FACILITY OF SOME KIND, WHICH DISPATCH HAPPENS THROUGH COUNTY TO CITY. THERE'S A WHOLE KIND OF GROUPING OF THINGS THAT OCCUR HERE.

JUST WONDERING THAT BACK END PIECE OF IT, WHERE WE'RE INTERACTING WITH NONPROFIT AND PRIVATE PARTIES AT THE HOSPITAL LEVEL OR THE END POINT LEVEL.

WHAT THOSE RELATIONSHIPS LOOK LIKE, HOW THAT KIND OF PLAYS INTO THE CONVERSATION, THE FIVE- MILE RUN AVERAGE IS NOT A VERY LONG RUN BECAUSE WE'VE GOT A STRAIGHT INFRASTRUCTURE OF PLACES TO DROP PEOPLE OFF TO. BUT JUST WONDERING HOW KIND OF ALL THOSE THINGS LINE UP. AGAIN, CAME FROM CALCULATOR MATH OF $4 MILLION OF RUNS A YEAR TO COLLECTING $2. 5 MILLION OF REVENUE AND JUST TRYING TO KIND OF RECONCILE WHERE THOSE

NUMBERS -- >> YEAH, I THINK IT SPEAKS TO ZACH'S POINT EARLIER ABOUT, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN CHARGE, YOU KNOW, A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE GOING TO COLLECT THAT RIGHT? SO A LOT OF THAT IS MEDICARE, MEDICAID. AND I HAD ANOTHER SHEET HERE.

LOOKING AT FOR 2024 RIGHT OFF, KIND OF WHERE THEY COME FROM -- SO, MEDICAID, MEDICARE, AND YOU KNOW, LOOKING AT OUR PAYER BASE FROM COMMUNITY TO COMMUNITY, AND WE HAVE A LOWER NUMBER OF CITIZENS ON MEDICAID, RIGHT? SO OTHER COMMUNITIES HAVE A HIGHER NUMBER.

SO THERE'S SIGNIFICANTLY MORE WRITEOFFS FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE.

BUT NO MATTER WHAT YOU BILL, MEDICARE IS GOING TO SAY, THIS -- FOR THAT TYPE OF RUN, THIS IS ALL WE'RE GOING TO REIMBURSE YOU. AND THAT IS SET, YOU KNOW, FEDERALLY. THEN THERE'S BEEN DISCUSSIONS AT THE STATE, AND PARTICULARLY I THINK A SESSION OR TWO AGO WHERE E.M.S. COULD BE REIMBURSED FOR MEDICAID RUNS AT A MEDICARE RATE.

I THINK THERE IS SOME PUSHBACK FROM INSURANCE COMPANIES ON THAT. AND WE'VE HAD SOME DISCUSSIONS WITH SOME LEGISLATORS THERE TO SAY, LET'S WATCH THIS AND THEN MAYBE IN THE 2026 SESSION TAKE A LOOK AT WORKING ON THAT. BUT THAT IS SOMETHING THAT'S DISCUSSED ALMOST EVERY SESSION DOWN THERE IS E.M.S.

BILLING AND REIMBURSEMENT RATES AND PERCENTAGES WITH OUR INSURANCES AND OUR THIRD PARTY. I THINK THE OTHER THING HERE

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BUT I BELIEVE IT'S A KIND PROCESS.

IF I COULD, YOU CAN SEE THAT IT'S VERY LOW FROM THAT PERCENTAGE. AND WE CAN TRY TO BREAK THIS OUT IN EVEN MORE DETAIL, BUT THIS JUST KIND OF GIVES YOU A WRITE-OFF OF THAT 1. 2, KIND OF WHAT THE BREAKDOWN IS IN 2024 IF THAT HELPS YOU.

>> YEAH, I THINK THAT'S SUPER HELPFUL. THAT SPECIFICALLY, SEEING THE MAJORITY OF THE WRITEOFFS COME FROM MEDICARE, CUTOFF POINT MEANS EVEN IF WE RAISE THE RATES IN STATUTE, WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE COLLECTING MORE REVENUE THAT'S WRITTEN OFF BASED ON OUR RATE ITSELF. SO STRUCTURALLY, LIKE, IF THERE IS A TIPPING POINT THERE, LIKE FIGURING OUT HOW WE'RE SETTING OUR RESIDENTS UP FOR SUCCESS. OBVIOUSLY, AGAIN, THE GOAL HERE IS THAT AMBULANCE SERVICES ARE NUMBER ONE, HIRE IN FEED, IF YOU DON'T HAVE A FIRE, THERE'S NOT CURRENT CRIME GOING, THIS IS WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING, MAKING RUNS FOR PEOPLE TO BE SAVED. BUT ULTIMATELY, LIKE OUR RATE COULD BE ANYTHING IF WE'RE STILL CAPPED AT THAT LEVEL FOR THE MAJORITY OF OUR RUNS.

THAT'S WHERE THE DATA HOLISTICALLY OF WHAT THOSE RUNS ARE WE'RE MAKING, WHERE WE'RE GOING, ARE WE TRYING TO CREATE OR SUBSIDIZE THOSE RUNS WITH OTHER CLAIMS THAT AREN'T MEDICARE OR MEDICAID BASED. BUT KNOWING WHAT THOSE CAPS ARE ON THE INSURANCE SIDE MATTERS, BECAUSE IF -- I MEAN, IF THE CAP FOR JUST A REGULAR CARLY FIORINA ANTHEM PLAN IS ONLY $100 HIGHER THAN THAT, WRITING OFF MONEY THERE, WHICH IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE WE ARE BECAUSE IT'S NOT ON THE LIST.

THAT'S JUST KIND OF WHERE MY LINE OF THINKING IS GOING.

WHAT ACTUAL REVENUE ARE WE GENERATING? WHERE ARE THESE CLAIMS COMING THROUGH? WHICH ONES ARE BEING PAID OUT AT THE RATE WE HAVE? WHICH ONES ARE FLEXIBLE TO GO UP SOME? IS THAT SOMETHING WE NEED TODO IF OUR FUND IS STILL GROWING BASED ON THE PREPARATIONS WE'RE WILLING TO MAKE. ULTIMATELY THAT'S THE GAME WE'RE IN. SO, THERE'S NO QUESTION THERE.

I'M JUST THINKING OUT LOUD INTO A MICROPHONE.

>> WELL, AND IF I -- I DON'T KNOW THAT I'VE SAID IT ALREADY, BUT I DON'T KNOW THAT THIS DISCUSSION THAT WE'RE HAVING TONIGHT HAPPENS IN A LOT OF JURISDICTIONS WHERE YOU SPEND THIS MUCH TIME LOOKING AT E.M.S. SERVICE DELIVERY MOD SELL, HOW WE'RE DOING IT, YOU KNOW, OUR RATES, OUR COSTS, OUR REIMBURSEMENTS, WRITEOFFS, THINGS LIKE THAT, SO WE CAN TAKE A REALLY GOOD LOOK AT IT AND CONTINUE TO MAKE CHANGES AND TWEAKS THAT ARE BENEFICIAL TO THE CITY WITHOUT, YOU KNOW, FURTHER INJURING OUR CITIZENS THERE FROM A

BILLING STANDPOINT. >> COUNCILOR GREEN?

>> EVERYTHING YOU BROUGHT UP, COUNCILOR LOCKE, IS GOOD FOR DISCUSSION. TRYING TO FIGURE OUT THE BEST WAY TO USE THIS FUND. CHIEF, IF YOU COULD PUT THE FEES THING ON THERE, THE FEE SLIDE? NO, THE OTHER ONE. I REALLY LIKE THAT SLIDE, BUT THE OTHER ONE. THERE YOU GO.

ALL RIGHT. SO, WE JUST WENT THROUGH THE SPECIFICS OF THE WRITEOFFS. THE BASICALLY $1 MILLION, THE $1. 28 MILLION OF THE WRITEOFFS. IS THAT, AGAIN, THE PREVIOUS SLIDE YOU HAD IS A COMPARISON.

DO WE HAVE ANY TYPE OF COMPARISON ON HOW OUR PEERS ARE KIND OF COLLECTING? YOU KNOW, IS IT KIND OF SIMILAR? YOU SAID SOME OF THE OTHERS PROBABLY HAVE A HIGHER RATE OF MEDICAID.

AND WE MIGHT HAVE A HIGHER RATE OF MEDICARE, YOU KNOW, FOR HOW CARMEL'S KIND OF -- THE DEMOGRAPHICS. DO YOU KNOW THE COLLECTION PERCENTAGE? YOU KNOW, HOW WE COMPARE? BECAUSE THAT GOES TO MAYBE THE PROCESS THAT WE HAVE.

DO WE HAVE A SIMILAR PROCESS TO COLLECT AS SOME OF THOSE OTHER ENTITIES? I WOULD THINK, IF THEY'RE CHARGING SO MUCH MORE AND THEY'RE ALSO CAPPED AT MEDICAID, MEDICARE, THEN THEY'RE COLLECTING EVEN LESS OF THEIR TOTAL.

>> CORRECT.

>> YOU KNOW, THEIR GOAL. AND ULTIMATELY -- ALL RIGHT, NOW I'M GOING TO KIND OF -- THIS IS FOR DISCUSSION, AND MY MIC'S ON, SO YOU KNOW, CONTINUOUS. BUT WHAT IS THE GOAL OR INTENT OF, YOU KNOW, THE AMBULANCE FUND AND HOW MUCH DO WE WANT TO COLLECT, YOU KNOW, JUST TO COVER THE SERVICES? IS THAT THE INTENT OF, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THESE PLACES WITH MUCH HIGHER RATES? OR IS IT AS A REVENUE REVENUE TO NOT ONLY COVER THESE EXPENSES BUT OTHER PUBLIC SAFETY EXPENSES? BUT YOU CAN ANSWER KIND OF

[00:30:01]

ABOUT -- >> COUNCILOR GREEN, IF YOU PUT UP THE ONE GLARING DIFFERENCE, IF YOU PUT UP THE OTHER WITH COMPARISON FOR OTHER UNITS, THERE'S A COLUMN THERE I THINK'S IMPORTANT RELATED TO COLLECTION RATES. IF YOU PUT THE OTHER ONE UP WITH THE DEPARTMENTS AND RATES AND SPREADSHEET. IF YOU PUT THAT ONE UP, THERE'S A LINE ITEM, COLLECTIONS. YES, NO, INTERNAL.

IT APPEARS THAT -- IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT A NUMBER OF THESE OTHER DEPARTMENTS, THEY MAY COLLECT AT A HIGHER RATE BECAUSE THEY OUTSOURCE COLLECTIONS. WOULD THAT BE ACCURATE? OR THAT REPRESENTS THAT THEY'RE OUTSOURCING COLLECTIONS?

>> IT'S PROBABLY A OUTSOURCED E.M.S. BILLING AND

COLLECTIONS. >> COLLECTIONS,

OKAY. >>

PROBABLY -- >> WELL, ONE, IT'S -- THERE'S MAYBE MORE ACCURACY. THERE'S MAYBE OTHER EFFICIENCIES IF YOU DO IT THAT WAY.

BUT I'M ASSUMING THAT'S WHAT THAT MEANS.

OUTSOURCING BILLING AND COLLECTIONS.

>> YES. AND I THINK -- COUNCILOR GREEN, TO YOUR QUESTION, I THINK MOST AGENCIES ARE PROBABLY IN THE 40 TO 60% COLLECTION RATE RANGE AFTER WRITEOFFS.

SOME COMMUNITIES, AGAIN, DON'T PAY MUCH ATTENTION TO THAT.

OTHERS, YOU KNOW, ARE REALLY WORKING TO TRY TO COLLECT ALL THEY CAN THERE.

TO PROVIDE SOME REVENUE BACK IN FOR SUPPLIES AND

WHATNOT. >> FOR THOSE THAT DON'T CHECK, IT JUST COMES FROM THEIR GENERAL FUND, I WOULD ASSUME?

>> I'M SORRY?

>> WHERE THE -- COVERING THE SERVICES, THAT WOULD JUST COME FROM THE GENERAL FUND? OKAY.

>> THANK YOU, COMMITTEE MEMBERS. I THINK I CAN PROVIDEPROVIDE PERSPECTIVE AND ALSO SOME LINEAR PROCESSES HERE.

SO, THIS IS A STATUTORY SCHEME. IT'S UNDER INDIANA CODE 16-31- 5 IS THE AUTHORITY FOR BEING ABLE TO ESTABLISH E.M.S. AS DRAWN BY THE CITY.

THE LANGUAGE THERE IS REASONABLE FEES.

SO IT'S -- I BELIEVE THAT WOULD BE LOOKING AT THE MARKET RATES AND SO FORTH.

THIS IS KIND OF A UNIQUE OLE THAT IS PLAYED HERE THAT POTENTIALLY ALSO IS SERVED BY COMMERCIAL ESTABLISHMENTS. SO CITIES, UNITS OF GOVERNMENT ARE STEPPING IN AND GIVING THE AUTHORITY TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE THESE SERVICES.

I THINK THIS MIGHT BE -- OBVIOUSLY IT IS A PUBLIC SAFETY ASPECT, AND THERE'S ALSO ENSURING THAT THE NEEDS OF THE COMMUNITY ARE PROPERLY MET.

BUT THERE'S ALSO A BIG COST, RIGHT? SO THE COST ASPECT HERE IS WHAT HAPPENS IS THE FIRE DEPARTMENT BECOMES A MEDICAL PROVIDER, RIGHT? IN THAT INSTANCE THEY GO FROM BEING YOUR PUBLIC SAFETY ENTITY TO WEARING A DIFFERENT CAP AND HAVING HIPAA AND OTHER APPLICATIONS COME INTO PLAY.

WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT FEES THAT WE CHARGE, THIS ISN'T LIKE LOOKING AT UTILITY AUTO RATES OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. WE ARE THEN GOVERNED BY REGULATORY STANDARDS AT THAT FEDERAL LEVEL, AND WE'RE ALSO GOVERNED BY THE BILLING CODES. AND SO WE ONLY HAVE A CERTAIN NUMBER OF BILLING CODES THAT CAN APPLY FOR THE SERVICES PROVIDED.

AND WITH THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN TAKE A FINAL LOOK AT THAT AS A COUNCIL. AND LOOK, ARE WE MAKING SURE THAT WE'RE GETTING ALL THE RETURN ON OUR INVESTMENT? ARE WE ABLE -- ON THE BILLING SIDE? AND SO WHAT HAPPENS IS, THE RUN OCCURS, ONCE THAT RUN OCCURS WE HAVE INTERNAL BILLING WHICH IS RUN OUT OF THE FIRE DEPARTMENT. AND THERE'S A TEAM THERE THAT RUNS THAT BILLING. THEY WILL SEND OUT -- HOPEFULLY THEY'LL GET THE INFORMATION THAT'S REQUIRED FROM INSURANCE. WE'RE IN A UNIQUE KIND OF POSITION AS WELL. IT'S WORTH NOTING.

THE NUMBER ONE GOAL HERE ISIS SAVE THE LIFE OF THE PATIENT AND GET THEM TO THE PLACE THEY NEED TO AS FAST AS WE CAN, TO GET THEM TO THE HOSPITAL AS FAST AS WE CAN. WE HAVE RELATIONSHIPS WITH HOSPITALS THAT WE ARE ABLE TO OBTAIN INSURANCE INFORMATION AFTER THE FACT FOR THAT PERSON TO BE ABLE TO RUN THAT INSURANCE.

AND WE'RE TRYING TO STREAMLINE THOSE PROCESSES.

SO WE OBTAIN THAT INSURANCE

[00:35:02]

I BELIEVE THERE'S A 30, 60, 90- DAY PROCESS THAT THAT THEN GENERATES FOR. AFTER THAT, THE OTHER -- THE INTERNAL PART IS ON THE COLLECTIONS SIDE. ONCE THEY'VE GENERATED THOSE THREE BILLS, IF THEY ARE UNABLE TO RECEIVE FULL PAYMENT FOR THEM, AND THAT'S AFTER -- OBVIOUSLY IF MEDICAID PAYS, THEN THAT'S ALL WE'RE GETTING.

WITH MEDICARE, THERE ARE DIFFERENT FEE SCHEDULES WITHIN MEDICARE. AT CERTAIN TIMES DEDUCTIBLES COME INTO PLAY AND IT'S STILL PATIENT RESPONSIBILITY.

SOMETHING IN THE REGION OF $250 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

OBVIOUSLY YOU HAVE YOUR COMMISSION INSURANCE AND PEOPLE THAT PROVIDE THE INSURANCE OR DON'T HAVE INSURANCE. THEN YOU'VE GOT THAT FULL RATE THAT IS THERE THAT'S STILL APPLICABLE.

THE FIRE DEPARTMENT DOES NOT WRITE OFF THOSE AMOUNTS.

THOSE AMOUNTS GET PASSED ON TO THE LAW DEPARTMENT FOR COLLECTION.

AND WE HAVE A FAIRLY ROBUST COLLECTION PROCESS THAT WE HAVE HAD IN PLACE FOR -- SINCE 2017. 2017, 2018.

WE HANDLE THAT INTERNALLY ON THE COLLECTIONS SIDE.

WE CAN AND DO CHARGE ATTORNEY FEES WHEN WE TAKE IT THROUGH COURT ON THE COLLECTION SIDE.

I BELIEVE THERE ARE COLLECTIONS THAT TAKE PLACE FOR ALL THESE OTHER -- FOR ALL THESE OTHER ENTITIES AND LOCAL UNITS. THEY ARE ENTITLED ALSO TO COLLECT ATTORNEY FEES. THEIR ATTORNEY FEES ARE GOING TO BE MUCH HIGHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE OBVIOUSLY ENGAGING WITH US ON COUNSEL TO BE ABLE TO DO THOSE FILINGS. WE TRY AND KEEP OURS VERY LIMITED. THERE'S A BALANCING HERE.

THE STATUTE IS PUT IN PLACE SO WE CAN PROVIDE THE SERVICE. WE ALSO NEED TO COVER OUR COSTS RELATED TO IT. WE CAN ALSO WORK VERY CAREFULLY AND PATIENTLY WITH THE PATIENT AND KIND OF WORK THROUGH THE WHYS AS TO WHY -- NO ONE WANTS TO BE IN COURT. PEOPLE GENERALLY WANT TO PAY THEIR BILLS. SO YOU TRY AND FIGURE THAT OUT AND WORK IT OUT. SO WE DON'T -- IT IS EXTREMELY RARE THAT WE ISSUE ANY LEVEL OF WRITEOFF. IT JUST -- WE DON'T REDUCE THE DEBT, EITHER. WE OFFER A PAYMENT PLANS.

IT'S THROUGH THE AUTHORITY HERE, IT'S THE AUTHORITY OF THE CITY ATTORNEY, I THINK WE'LL GET TO THAT, CORPORATION COUNSEL THAT HAS THAT AUTHORITY TO BE ABLE TO MAKE DETERMINATIONS RELATED TO THE DEBT.

BUT WE PURSUE THAT ULTIMATELY TO OBTAIN A JUDGMENT.

A JUDGMENT LASTS LONGER ON THE STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS.

WE GET TO HOLD ON TO THAT FOR 20 YEARS. THERE'S ALSO A SCHEME IN PLACE WHICH IS A VERY PASSIVE SCHEME THAT IS RUN BY STATUTE THAT WE HAVE BECOME A PART OF, THE COUNCIL ENTERED THE RESOLUTION A FEW YEARS AGO LOCALLY KNOWN AS TREKS. IT AS PROGRAM UNDER STATUTE THAT ALLOWS FOR UNITS OF GOVERNMENT TO BE ABLE TO COLLECT THE TAX REFUNDS, STATE- LEVEL TAX REFUNDS.

>> DO WE FILE -- DO WE FILE MEDICAL COLLECTIONS ON THERE, ON THEIR INDIVIDUAL CREDIT REPORT?

>> WE DO NOT.

>> CREDITORS ARE NOW NOT REALLY APPLYING -- THEY'RE A LOT OF TIMES OVERLOOKING MEDICAL COLLECTIONS ON A CREDIT REPORT ANYMORE THESE DAY PHYSICIANHOW WHEN YOU GO TO OBTAIN A LOAN. I JUST WONDERED IF YOU HAPPEN TO

DO THAT. >> WE HAVE NEVER DONE THAT.

WE DON'T REDUCE THE AMOUNT, AND WE ALSO DON'T PROVIDE -- THERE ISN'T A MECHANISM FOR FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE. WE DON'T HAVE AN ASSESSMENT RELATED TO SOMEONE PROVIDING A LEVEL OF, HEY, HERE ARE MY INCOMINGS AND OUTGOINGS AND SO FORTH. THE WAY THAT I OFTEN FRAME IT, AND I HANDLE THESE AND HAVE HANDLED THEM AT THE COLLECTION LEVEL IN COURT, SO I SPEAK WITH A LOT OF PATIENTS WHO HAVE COME, AND ULTIMATELY WE'RE THERE TO COLLECT THE AMOUNT TO KEEP THE SERVICE RUNNING. I MEAN, THAT'S REALLY WHAT IT IS. COMPARATIVELY, WE ARE LOW IN WHAT WE'RE SEEKING. BUT WE NEED THE AMOUNT THERE SO THAT WE CAN KEEP IT RUNNING.

>> QUESTION. SO, IF WE -- SO ONCE IT GOES 90 DAYS, MOST COMMERCIAL ENTITIES WILL WRITE IT OFF AS BAD DEBT BUT STILL PURSUE COLLECTIONS.

WE DON'T TAKE THAT ROLE, WE DON'T USE THAT FINANCIAL ACCOUNTING MECHANISM LIKE PRIVATE INDUSTRY DOES?

>> I'M NOT ENTIRELY SURE HOW THEY WORK IT ON THE BILLING SIDE.

I KNOW THAT -- IF THEY WRITE IT OFF

AS -- >> BECAUSE --

>> SORRY, GO AHEAD.

[00:40:01]

>> IN FINANCE AND MOST COMMERCIAL ENTERPRISES THAT PERFORM THIS TYPE OF COLLECTIONS OR ALLOW FOR ACCOUNTS PAYABLE LIKE THAT FOR INDIVIDUALS, USUALLY AT 90 OR 120 DAYS FROM AN ACCOUNT GAP ACCOUNTING STANDPOINT, THAT'S USUALLY WRITTEN OFF AS BAD DEBT.

THEN WHEN YOU COLLECT IT, IT GOES TO OFFSET THAT LINE ITEM IN THE BAD DEBT EXPENSE. SO I JUST DIDN'T KNOW IF WE HANDLED IT THAT WAY.

>> I DO NOT KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT

QUESTION. >> I HAVE A COUPLE REAL QUICK QUESTIONS FROM LEGAL STANDPOINT. SO THE ORDINANCE ESTABLISHES UNDER SECTION -- WHAT WAS SECTION 5 THAT WE'RE CONSIDERING TERMINATING. SO I GUESS IT WILL GO TO SECTION 4. UNDER ITEM A, IT ESTABLISH ES RATES. I ASSUME THESE RATES WERE ESTABLISHED AT SOME POINT FOR THE VARIOUS RATES. BUT THEN IN SECTION C, IT TALKS ABOUT A 3% COST OF LIVING ADJUSTMENT. BUT THEN YOU GO TO ITEM D, IT APPEARS THAT JUST FROM THAT ONE YEAR, THERE'S AN ORDINANCE CHANGE TO INCREASE THE COST OF LIVING. IT WAS ONLY FOR THAT ONE YEAR TO 8.75%? IS THAT CORRECT?

>> YEAH, THAT IS CORRECT.

>> OKAY. AND THEN THE SECOND QUESTION I HAVE IS, WHAT IS THE HEMELIN COUNTY E.M.S. TAX? PROVIDING E.M.S. RUNS OUT OF CITY LIMITS?

>> I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION THAT'S SOMETHING I'LL HAVE TO LOOK INTO.

>> THAT WILL BE SOMETHING WE NEED TO HAVE REPORTED BACK AND CLEANED UP FROM THE ORDINANCE.

WE GOT THE COLLECTION RATES, COST OF TRANSPORT.

I'M -- SO I WANT TO TALK ABOUT SOMETHING, A COUPLE OF THINGS PHILOSOPHICALLY. WE HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT COME TO VISIT OUR COMMUNITIES FROM OUTSIDE OF CARMEL, USE OUR AMENITIES, ATTEND OUR EVENTS, RIGHT? AND IF OUR NONRESIDENTS RATE IS FOR SOMEBODY LIVING IN INDIANA, IT FEELS LIKE OUR RESIDENTS ARE -- THROUGH THEIR RATES ARE SUBSIDIZING THE COSTS FOR TRANSPORT AND SERVICES FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIVE IN CARMEL. SO, IT WOULD BE MY OPINION, AND I'D LIKE TO SEE HOW THE FINANCE COMMITTEE MAYBE AGREES OR NOT AGREES, THAT IT WOULD BE -- I AM OF THE OPINION THAT IF YOU DON'T LIVE IN CARMEL, YOU SHOULD BE CHARGED A NONRESIDENT RATE.

AND WE SHOULD WORK TO HAVE A REASONABLE COST FOR OUR RESIDENTS , BUT CHARGE THE APPROPRIATE AMOUNT AS A NONRESIDENT RATE FOR THOSE WHO DON'T LIVE IN OUR COMMUNITY WHO NEED OUR SERVICES WITHIN CARMEL. THEN I HAD SOME OTHER DIRECTION I THINK -- BECAUSE THIS IS -- YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO -- CHIEF, E.M.S. CHIEF, YOU GUYS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GO BACK, PREPARE SOME RECOMMENDATIONS, BRING THEM BACK TO THE FINANCE COMMITTEE. SO ONCE WE GET THROUGH SOME QUESTIONS, I HAVE SOME OTHER THINGS I'D LIKE TO HAVE US TALK ABOUT, HAVE PREPARED AND PRESENTED.

>> ON YOUR POINT ABOUT -- YEAH, I CONCUR WITH THE RESIDENT -- YOU KNOW, WHO'S A RESIDENT, YOU KNOW. BRINGING THE SCOPE IN FROM STATE TO CARMEL.

BUT DO YOU KNOW WHY IT WAS SET, YOU KNOW? WE TOOK A MORE EXPANSIVE -- YOU SAID A LOT OF -- MAYBE, CHIEF, IT WAS YOU, SAID A LOT OF MUNICIPALITIES DEFINED RESIDENT AS INDIVIDUALS WHO LIVE WITHIN THE CITY CONFINES.

AND WE DON'T -- AND YOU PROBABLY DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THIS, BUT I DON'T KNOW IF -- HOW LONG -- HAS THAT ALWAYS BEEN OUR DEFINITION OR INTERPRETATION?

>> YEAH, I DON'T KNOW. AND THAT'S THE FIRST TIME I'VE EVER HEARD OF A NONRESIDENT RATE BEING STATEWIDE.

>> YEAH.

>> MOST OF THE TIME, IT IS, I THINK TO YOUR POINT, COUNCILOR TAYLOR, SUBSIDIZING, YOU KNOW, OTHERS THAT COME IN AND USE THE SERVICES. AND WE CAN RUN -- WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SOME ADDITIONAL DATA POINTS.

WE CAN RUN, YOU KNOW, AN ADDRESS, HOW MANY WERE OUT OF CITY INDIVIDUALS THAT WERE TRANSPORTED BY THE CARMEL FIRE DEPARTMENT.

>> COUNCILOR LOCKE?

>> SURE, I'VE GOT SOME MORE QUESTIONS PROBABLY ON THE LEGAL SIDE, JUST TO THINK THROUGH -- I'VE GOT COMPETING WORD

[00:45:04]

DO WE HAVE A STANDARD NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT ARE IN PAYMENT PLANS AT ANY GIVEN TIME?

>> I DON'T KNOW IF THAT -- IF IT WOULD BE STANDARD, PER SE, AS TO A CERTAIN NUMBER.

THE DEBTS ARE NOT TERRIBLY LARGE DEBTS, RIGHT? WE'RE TALKING HERE, WHEN YOU'RE COLLECTING ON THEM, IT'S -- AFTER INSURANCE IS PAID, SO SOMETIMES IT'S JUST IN THE FEW HUNDREDS. AND THEN SOME PEOPLE HAVE MULTIPLE RUNS, SO THEN YOU'RE GOING INTO THE LOW THOUSANDS. THE WAY THAT WE HANDLE THAT IS, WHEN OUR DEMAND LETS US GO OUT, THEY CARRY A LITTLE BIT MORE WEIGHT, BECAUSE WE ARE GOING TO BE FILING SUIT IF WE DO NOT MARRY FROM THEM.

USUALLY GET A NUMBER OF CALLS, THEN ENTER PAYMENT PLANS OR PAYOUT RIGHTS TO GET THAT SORTED. THE SAME THING HAPPENS WITH THE TREKS PROGRAM. WHEN THEY GET NOTIFIED THAT THEY HAVE RECEIVED -- THAT THEIR TAX REFUND IS GOING TO BE PULLED, THEY DON'T WANT TO PAY THE PERCENTAGE TO DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE, WHICH I BELIEVE IS 10%, IT WAS 15, THEY DON'T WANT TO PAY A CLEARING FEE TO THE CLEARINGHOUSE WHICH IS A STATUTORY AUTHORITY, A MIDDLE AUTHORITY THAT WORKS BETWEEN ALL THE UNITS OF GOVERNMENT AND DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE.

SO THEY WANT TO GET RID OF THAT. AND THEY WANT TO COME AND PAY IT OUT. WE ALSO -- WE DO ENTER INTO PAYMENT PLANS. THEY'RE SPREAD MONTHS, NOT TYPICALLY YEARS, BECAUSE OF THE LOW LEVEL. PLUS THE ADMINISTRATIVE COSTS OF US MONITORING THOSE. WE WILL -- IF WE FILE SUIT, THERE WILL BE PEOPLE THAT WILL SHOW UP THAT WILL OFTEN ENTER INTO PAYMENT PLANS. SOMETIMES WE DON'T HAVE INSURANCE, AND THEY HAD INSURANCE. AND IT'S A MATTER OF THEN CLAIMING ON THAT AND SAYING, OKAY, WE'LL RUN THE INSURANCE.

I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT NUMBER.

>> THAT'S FINE, YEAH.

>> SO I DON'T WANT TO -- I KNOW IT'S SUBSTANTIAL, IT KEEPS

TATIANA AND OUR LEGAL TEAM -- >> FLIP IT UP A LEVEL, THEN, ON ONES THAT WE FILE SUIT ON, THOSE ARE OBVIOUSLY PROBABLY SMALL CLAIMS

COURT. >>

YEAH. >> YOUR LOCAL SMALL CLAIMS PROCESS, HOW MANY OF THOSE DO WE FILE A YEAR? WONDERING ON THE ATTORNEYS' FEES SIDE, IS THAT REVENUE COLLECTED AND PAID --

>> GOES BACK TO THE GENERAL FUND.

>> GOES TO THE GENERAL FUND, OKAY.

ON THE BILLING CODE PIECE, AND I THINK THAT'S KIND OF ANOTHER PIECE OF THIS WE HAVEN'T REALLY GOTTEN INTO ON THE INSURANCE SIDE, OBVIOUSLY WHEN YOU DO AN AMBULANCE RUN, IF IT'S A.L.S.

, YOU'VE GOT MORE ADVANCED LIFE SUPPORT PROCESS, THERE ARE OTHER THINGS THAT YOU'RE BILLING FOR. I'M WONDERING, HOW DO WE DO ANALYSIS OR LOOK AT ALL THE DIFFERENT BILLING CODES THAT ARE THERE, ENSURING WE'RE HITTING ALL THE ONES WE NEED TO.

THAT INCREASES REVENUE, ENSURING WE'RE BILLING FOR SERVICES WE'RE PROVIDING.

I'M SURE FROM A FIREFIGHTER -- THE FIRE DEPARTMENT POSITION, PART OF OUR PROCESS IS ENSURING THAT WE'RE KIND OF DOING THAT APPROPRIATELY AND WONDERING IF THAT IS SOMETHING WE DO INTERNALLY OR IF THERE'S BEEN A LOOK AT IT TO ENSURE THAT WE'RE BILLING EVERYTHING ADEQUATELY ON THE FRONT END AT A MAXIMIZED RECOUPMENT WE'D GET ON THE INSURANE SIDE TOO?

>> I THINK YOUR INITIAL QUESTION'S RELATED TO THE LAWSUITS THAT WE FILE. AND IN A MONTH, ANYWHERE BETWEEN 30 AND 60 IS WHAT WE'LL TYPICALLY BRING.

IT CAN BE LESS. IT CAN BE MORE.

WE HAVE WORKED OUT ARRANGEMENT WITH THE SUPERIOR SET IS WHERE WE GO. WE HAVE UP TO 25 WE CAN DO A WEEK. WE USED TO HAVE A LOT MORE THAT WOULD GO. BUT OUR PROCESS, IT HIGHLIGHTED A NUMBER OF PROCESS ISSUES WITH RECEIVING INSURANCE, WHY WE DIDN'T HAVE INSURANCE.

I BELIEVE THE FIRE DEPARTMENT HAS WORKED VERY CLOSELY WITH THE HOSPITALS TO OBTAIN INSURANCE ON A MORE EFFICIENT BASIS. ALSO, THERE WAS A BACKLOG BECAUSE WE WERE COLLECTING WHEN WE STARTED. SO WE HAD A BACKLOG COMING IN.

BUT GENERALLY SPEAKING, WHENEVER -- WHATEVER GETS SENT ACROSS TO US FROM BILLING, WE -- WHETHER THEY CANNOT COLLECT, WE WILL RUN THOSE VERY QUICKLY INTO A SMALL CLAIMS SUIT AND MOVE FORWARD FROM THERE.

>> AND THEN JUST BASED ON THE FACT THAT WE'RE FILING FOR ATTORNEYS' FEES, WE PROBABLY HAVE A ACCOUNTING OF THE NUMBER OF HOURS WE'RE PUTTING IN THAT

END? >> WHAT WE DO IN RELATION TO THAT IS WE KEEP THE NUMBER FAIRLY LOW.

THE NUMBER IS AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME $275 PER FILING.

[00:50:04]

AND THAT IS -- THAT'S SOMETHING THAT IS SET BY CORPORATION COUNCIL. AND WE ALSO CLAIM INTEREST ON THESE AS WELL. AND SO THE INTEREST ACCRUES AT 8% FROM THE DATE OF SERVICE AND 8% ALSO FROM THE DATE OF JUDGMENT.

ON THE PREJUDGMENT, POSTJUDGMENT.

I WILL TELL YOU THAT WE USE THOSE AS CARROT INCENTIVES.

SO THAT WE DON'T REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF A SERVICE THAT WAS PROVIDED, BUT WE WOULD BE WILLING TO REDUCE THE AMOUNT OR REMOVE INTEREST AND ATTORNEY FEES SO LONG AS THEY MAKE THE PAYMENTS REQUIRED TO PAY FOR THE SERVICE THAT WAS PROVIDED.

THAT'S KIND OF THE -- WHAT WE USE AT COURT AS A MECHANISM.

>> CHIEF YOUNG, YOU HAD MENTIONED ABOUT MAKING SURE THAT, YOU KNOW, ARE WE CAPTURING THE CORRECT BILLING CODES? MORE SOUNDS LIKE A QUALITY ASSURANCE TYPE THING. FROM THE FIREFIGHTER SIDE OF THINGS, WE DO A PRETTY -- WE HAVE A PRETTY ROBUST QUALITY ASSURANCE PROGRAM, WE DO GO THROUGH AND MAKE SURE OUR PEOPLE ARE PUTTING IN THE CORRECT TREATMENTS AND THE CORRECT FIELDS WHICH KEYS THE BILLING DEPARTMENT TO BE ABLE TO BILL AND CODE IT A CERTAIN WAY.

SO THERE IS A PRETTY ROBUST, INTERNAL PROCESS WITH THAT IN PLACE.

AND THEN OUR BILLING DIVISION, THE LADIES THERE, THEY DO ATTEND A YEARLY CONFERENCE TO STAY ON TOP OF THE LATESTLATEST -- WHATEVER TRAINING THEY HAVE TO HAVE AND CHANGES, GUIDELINES WHEN IT COMES TO BILLING. SO YEAH, A COUPLE OF PIECES THAT WE TRY TO MAINTAIN TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE DOING A GOOD JOB OF BILLING.

>> I ASKED THE QUESTION BECAUSE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, AGAIN, TO THE -- I MEAN, ONE SPOT FITS ALL, ONE NUMBER FOR EACH TYPE OF RUN. AS WE ARE TRYING TO KIND OF COME UP WITH THE RIGHT NUMBER FOR WHAT THAT SHOULD BE TO ENSURE THAT WE'VE GOT FULL COVERAGE OF ALL THE DIFFERENT SERVICES BEING PROVIDED.

ULTIMATELY, WE BILL ALL CODES THAT OCCURRED ON A RUN TO INSURANCE, SO WE GET RECOUPMENT FROM INSURANCE FOR THAT AMOUNT. IF INSURANCE BILL -- IF THAT'S ABOVE THE AMOUNT, WHICH I DON'T KNOW THAT IT WOULD BE OR COULD BE, BASED ON THE NUMBER, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS, THAT WOULD BE THE END OF OUR COLLECTION. IF THERE'S MORE ABOVE THAT AMOUNT, THEN THERE COULD BE COLLECTION IN THAT SECONDARY PHASE.

TRYING TO MINIMIZE THAT IN SOME CAPACITY SEEMS IMPORTANT TO ME, BECAUSE AGAIN, THIS IS SOMETHING -- WE DON'T WANT TO PROHIBIT PEOPLE FROM CALLING 911 IF THEY HAVE SOMETHING BECAUSE OF A FINANCIAL ISSUE.

BUT FULL STOP FOR ONE OF NINE VOTES. BUT THE CONCEPT OF ENSURING THAT WE'VE GOT THE RIGHT AMOUNT OR THE RIGHT FLOW BASED ON THE ACTUAL SERVICE WE'RE PROVIDING.

BECAUSE, I MEAN, TECHNOLOGY HAS CHANGED.

WE DO MORE THINGS. WE'VE GOT, AGAIN, THE BEST- TRAINED DEPARTMENTS. WE'RE DOING THINGS OTHER DEPARTMENTS MAY NOT DO ON THEIR RUNS.

MAYBE. JUST ENSURING THAT WE UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT IS AS WE SET THIS FINANCIAL NUMBER IN STATUTE, ORDINANCE.

SEEMS TO MAKE SENSE TO ME, TOO.

>> IN THE -- THAT COST OF -- OR THE INCREASE IN THE PERCENTAGE OF OUR FEES EACH YEAR, AS YOU MENTIONED, IT'S DEFINED IN OUR ORDINANCE, EXCEPT FOR THAT ONE YEAR WAS A LITTLE BIT HIGHER THAN THE OTHERS. THAT'S WHY THERE WAS A SPECIAL FOR 2023.

BUT IT'S SIMPLY BASED OFF THE CALLER. THAT'S HOW WE INCREASE OUR FEES.

IT'S AUTOMATICALLY DONE AT THE FIRST OF THE YEAR. I WANT TO GO BACK -- YOU'D ASKED ABOUT A QUESTION ABOUT HOSPITAL RELATIONSHIP, CONTRACTS. WE DO NOT HAVE ANY CONTRACT WITH A HOSPITAL. FOR THE FINANCE SIDE OF THINGS.

SO, THAT DOES NOT TAKE PLACE. WE ALSO DO NOT HAVE A CONTRACT WITH INSURANCE COMPANIES.

OTHER DEPARTMENTS DO HAVE CONTRACTS WITH INSURANCE COMPANIES. WHAT WAS EXPLAINED TO ME THAT POTENTIALLY LIMITS THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT YOU CAN COLLECT FROM THE INSURANCE.

>> YOU'D HAVE TO OPERATE UNDER THEIR NEGOTIATED

RATES. >> YEAH.

AND YOU CAN'T -- AGAIN, I'VE SPOKEN TO MICHELLE HARRINGTON, OUR BILLING MANAGER, PRETTY EXTENSIVELY TODAY.

WHAT SHE EXPLAINED IS IF WE HAD A CONTRACT, LET'S SAY WITH ANTHEM, IT WAS $400, THE BILL WAS $600, THEY'D PAY US THAT $400 BUT WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO GO FOR THE EXTRA $200 WITH THE

PATIENT. >> BECAUSE IT'S NEGOTIATED BY THEIR INSURANCE PROVIDER.

>> RIGHT. WE TEND TO STAY AWAY FROM THOSE

CONTRACTS. >> DID I HEAR DIRECTLY THAT OUR COLLECTED MONIES FROM RUNS GO TO THE GENERAL FUND, NOT BACK TO THE AMBULANCE FUND? OH, ATTORNEYS' FEES?

>> THE ATTORNEY FEES PORTION OF

[00:55:02]

IT. >> OUR CHARGE -- OUR CHARGE TO THE GENERAL FUND, NOT THE AMBULANCE FUND, ATTORNEYS' FEES FOR COLLECTION?

>> ANYTHING THAT WE OBTAIN ON ATTORNEY FEES ON THAT LINE ITEM WILL GO BACK INTO THE GENERAL

FUND. >> BUT -- BUT OTHER COLLECTIONS FOR SERVICES GOES BACK TO THE AMBULANCE FUND?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> OKAY.

>> PAYMENT FOR SERVICES.

>> I WANT TO MAKE THAT CLARIFICATION.

YES, SIR.

>> IF I CAN JUST ADD ONE LITTLE THE CHIEFS PROBABLY KNOW MORE ABOUT THIS PIECE THAN I DO.

WE DO GET A LITTLE BIT OF MEDICAID REIMBURSEMENT, ROUGHLY ONCE A YEAR, A FEW HUNDRED THOUSAND THAT COMES IN.

TO ME IT SOUNDS A LOT LIKE DISPROPORTIONATE SHARE HOSPITAL SHORTFALL TYPE PAYMENT. OBVIOUSLY NOT A HOSPITAL, BUT IT COMES IN, IT'S USUAL -- I THINK WE'RE EXPECTING ONE IN THE NEXT COUPLE WEEKS. IT'S ACTUALLY LIKE A SETTLE- UP FOR 2022, IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY.

ROUGHLY ONCE A YEAR, 2 OR $300,000.

FOR WHATEVER REASON, THE RESIDENT HAD BEEN ESTABLISHED THAT THAT GETS DEPOSITED IN THE GENERAL FUND. NOT IN THE AMBULANCE FUND.

SO WE'VE CONTINUED TO FOLLOW THAT. BUT I THINK THAT'STHAT'S POINT THAT WE SHOULD LOOK AT, IF THAT'S REALLY WHERE THAT SHOULD GO.

>> IT'S COMING THROUGH THE STATE. IT'S F.S.S.A. MY GUESS IS IT'S PROBABLY A BLEND OF BOTH FEDERAL DOLLARS AND -- I MEAN, IT'S OUR MONEY NOW, SO IT'S NOT REALLY TECHNICALLY FEDERAL OR STATE.

BUT IT'S PROBABLY A BLEND OF THOSE THOSE DOLLARS IS THE SOURCE.

YEAH, WE USE A THIRD PARTY SERVICE THAT HELPS US RETRIEVE THOSE DOLLARS. AND IT'S USUALLY A FEW YEARS IN ARREARS. YEAH, I THINK COMING UP, IT'S A LITTLE OVER $300,000 WE'LL BE GETTING THERE.

SO THAT IS ANOTHER -- I APPRECIATE THAT BRINGING THAT UP. AGAIN, WHY DOES THAT GO IN THE GENERAL FUND? I DON'T KNOW.

YOU KNOW, INSTEAD OF THE AMBULANCE FUND. SOMETHING TO LOOK AT.

>> CHIEF COULD YOU PULL BACK UP THAT SPREADSHEET OF ALL THE OTHER DEPARTMENTS?

>> YES. ED AND THEN I WANTED TO SEE IF MAYBE WE COULD COME TO A CONSENSUS TO PROVIDE YOU SOME DIRECTION FOR THE NEXT MEETING. BUT I WANTED TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT -- BECAUSE WE -- ZACH AND I WORKED ON THIS, AND IT'S GOING TO LEAD TO A QUESTION. THEN I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS A LITTLE BIT. SO, WHEN ZACH AND I FIRST STARTED LOOKING AND ZACH WAS INVESTIGATING OUR CAPITAL LEASE PROGRAMS, WE FOUND THAT THERE WAS A NUMBER OF CAPITAL LEASES THAT THE INTEREST RATES WERE HIGH.

THAT WAS PARTLY CAUSING THE STRUCTURAL DEFICIT IN OUR AMBULANCE FUND. AND -- THOSE LEASES WERE FOR FIRE APPARATUS AND EQUIPMENT. CAN YOU TELL ME, CHIEF, DON'T MOST DEPARTMENTS HEAVILY RELY ON THEIR AMBULANCE FUND TO PAY FOR EQUIPMENT, SUPPLIES, AND ALSO

APPARATUS? >> I DON'T THINK IT'S UNCOMMON TO SEE WHAT SOME CALL E.M.S.

NONREVERTING FUNDS. SO THE COLLECTIONS GO INTO THAT FUND INSTEAD OF THEIR GENERAL FUND, THEN THEY CAN USE THEM FOR WHATEVER THEIR ELECTED BODY WISHES. BUT IT USUALLY IS E.M.S.

SUPPLIES, WHICH WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW, LOOKING AT SOME OF OUR COSTS YEAR OVER YEAR. E.M.S. SUPPLIES ARE GOING UP ABOUT A THIRD, 33 TO 40% EACH YEAR.

SO FOR E.M.S. SUPPLIES, AND COULD BE CAPITAL PURCHASES. SOME HAVING EQUIPMENT REPLACEMENT FUND.

THAT'S AT A SPECIFIED TAX -- I THINK THAT'S WHAT ZACH WAS TALKING TO EARLIER. WE DON'T HAVE THAT.

SO WE JUST USE THESE DOLLARS TO HELP PAY FOR THOSE CAPITAL LEASE PAYMENTS.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS I WANT TO TALK ABOUT IS HAVE YOU COME BACK WITH A RECOMMENDED COAL AMOUNT OR ONE- TIME INCREASE WITH THE CHANGE TO OUR COAL AMOUNT OR NOT. BUT ALSO, IF YOU LOOK AT THESE DEPARTMNTS, WHICH I'M FAMILIAR WITH A NUMBER OF THESE DEPARTMENTS, THEIR CHIEFS, THEIR SERVICE AREAS, ET CETERA.

[01:00:05]

YOU KNOW, I THINK WE NEED TO TAKE THAT IN ACCOUNT.

BUT WHAT I DON'T WANT US TO DO, PARTICULARLY FOR OUR RESIDENTS, CARMEL RESIDENTS, NOT INDIANA RESIDENTS, IS TO HAVE A FEE STRUCTURE FOR WHICH DETERS OR KEEPS THEM FROM CALLING CARMEL FIRE DEPARTMENT TO RECEIVE SERVICE.

WHETHER IT BE B.L.S. OR A.L.S. SERVICE.

I THINK OTHER COUNCILORS HAD MENTIONED THIS AS WELL.

I THINK PROBABLY THAT'S A -- YOU KNOW, WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE NEVER DO THAT. WHAT I WANTED TO TALK WITH -- JUST HAVE AN OPEN DISCUSSION WITH THE REST OF THE COMMITTEE IS SOME DIRECTION TO YOU, CHIEF, AND E. AM CTION S. CHIEF YOUNG ABOUT, YOU KNOW WHAT, YOU CAN TAKE AWAY FROM THIS MEETING TO THEN COME BACK WITH RECOMMENDATIONS FOR THE FINANCE COMMITTEE, FOR WHICH THEN WE CAN PASS ALONG TO THE FULL COUNCIL. AND I WANTED TO GO THROUGH A COUPLE OF THESE ITEMS AND THEN FEEL FREE TO ADD, COUNCILOR GREEN AND LOCKE.

BUT ONE IS OBVIOUSLY, BENJAMIN, FROM THE CORPORATION COUNSEL STANDPOINT, WHAT IS THE HAMLIN TAX. I ASSUME WE NEED TO STRIKE THAT.

CHANGES THAT NEED TO BE MADE TO THE ORDINANCE THAT DON'T REALLY FIT HOW WE'RE OPERATING IN TODAY'S WORLD. NUMBER TWO IS AN APPROPRIATE COLA. NOT JUST WHERE OUR RATES SHOULD BE BE, HOW WE WANT TO ADDRESS THAT. IT'S MY OPINION NONRESIDENT RATE SHOULD BE CHARGED TO NONRESIDENTS OF CARMEL.

TO HOPEFULLY LIMIT THE COST TO OUR RESIDENTS AND FOR T THE -- MAYBE QUICK PROVIDE A COST TO OUR RESIDENTS THAT -- SHIFT SOME OF THAT COST TO NONRESIDENTS.

I DON'T WANT YOU TO MANAGE THE FIRE DEPARTMENT, THAT'S NOT OUR ROLE, BUT THE CONTEXT THROUGH WHICH WE CAN SUPPORT YOU THROUGH CHANGES TO THIS ORDINANCE. AND THE -- AND THEN ANY OTHER STRATEGIES RELATED TO OUR FEES AND SCHEDULES AND PROCESSES THAT YOU'D RECOMMEND MAKING THAT FIT WITHIN INDIANA CODE AND THE SCOPE OF SERVICES YOU GUYS PROVIDE. COUNCILOR LOCKE?

>> YEAH, JUST TO KIND OF ECHO AND PHILOSOPHIZE, LIKE PRESIDENT TAYLOR, A LITTLE.

THE CONCEPT HERE IS HOW DO WE MAKE THIS AMBULANCE FUND BEST OF CLASS? THRESHOLD QUESTION, WE DON'T HAVE A CAPITAL OUTLAY FUND FOR THE DEPARTMENT. IS THIS FUND, RIGHT? USING THIS FUND STRATEGICALLY AND APPROPRIATELY TO DO THE THINGS THAT MATTER FROM AN EXPANSION OR STRUCTURE OF YOUR CAPITAL NEEDS AS A WAY TO KIND OF OFFSET THOSE BASES. I -- WHILE IT SEEMS FUNGIBLE, IT SEEMS LIKE MONEY THAT KIND OF BECOMES -- COVERING THE SERVICES PROVIDED HERE, THESE SERVICES ARE SERVICES WE PROVIDE AS PART OF DAILY OPERATIONS OF THE FIRE DEPARTMENT.

THEY ARE IN THE GENERAL FUND. THIS IS OUR E.M.S.

OFFICIALS, IT'S PART OF OUR PERSONNEL, IT'S THE THINGS WE NEED. WHEN YOU CALL 911, YOU PRESUME A FIRE TRUCK, AMBULANCE, POLICE OFFICER ARE GOING TO COME. THAT'S PART OF THE SERVICE THAT'S THERE. WHEN WE LOOK AT THE FINANCIAL STRUCTURE ITSELF, IT DOESN'T OFFSET THE AMOUNT PAID FOR BECAUSE THE SERVICES ARE SOMETHING WE PROVIDE. ENSURING THE NUMBERS WE HAVE ON THE LIST ARE THE THINGS WE CAN COLLECT APPROPRIATELY FROM THOSE THINGS THAT WE ARE ALL FORCED TO BUY IN AMERICA, INSURANCE, I THINK IS PART AND PARCEL TO THE MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR ME.

LIKE WE'RE OFFSETTING THE THING THAT EVERYBODY IS ALREADY PROVIDING FOR THEMSELVES BY FEDERAL LAW. ALMOST EVERYBODY. BUT THAT THAT NUMBER INCLUDES THAT AMOUNT SO THAT THE RIGHT BILLING OF INSURANCE IS OCCURRING SO WE CAN RECOUP THE

[01:05:01]

THAT'S OUR DUTY. BUT I DO ALSO THINK IF YOU'RE HERE, YOU'RE A RESIDENT WHILE YOU'RE HERE, IT'S A -- PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES CLAUSE OF THE CONSTITUTION THAT SAYS IF YOU'RE FROM A STATE, YOU'RE TREATED THE SAME WAY IN ALL STATES.

I PHILOSOPHICALLY THINK THAT KIND OF APPLIES TO WHEN YOU'RE HERE, PART WHAT WAS WE'RE DOING TOO. I WOULD HESITATE PERSONALLY TO MAKE IT A BURDEN FOR OUT OF CITY PEOPLE, BECAUSE THEY'RE HERE, THEY'RE A PART OF OUR LIVES, THEY'RE OUR LOVED ONES, OUR FAMILY MEMBERS, THEY'RE PEOPLE THAT COME TO OUR MARKETS OR OUR THINGS, TO THE PALLADIUM. THE IDEA OF ENSURING THAT THAT NUMBER, AGAIN, MEETS THEIR NEED IS THEY'RE FREELY CHOOSING TO KEEP THEIR TIME AND BE HERE THAT WE'RE NOT PUTTING A MASSIVE BURDEN LIKE SOME OF OUR NEIGHBOR CITIES ARE ON THOSE PEOPLE THAT ARE COMING AND SPENDING THEIR TIME HERE. MATTERS TO ME BUT I THINK ALL THOSE THINGS ARE TIED UP. IF WE'RE BILLING FOR THE RIGHT THINGS, PROVIDING THE BEST SERVICE, GOT THE RIGHT COVERAGE, ENSURING WHAT RATES WE ARE CHARGING OR CAN CHARGE FOR RECOUPING THAT AMOUNT THAT COMES IN FROM THAT HOSPITAL, INSURANCE PROCESS THAT WE HAVE TO KIND OF RUN -- THAT ALLOWS US TO MAXIMIZE THE VALUE THAT COMES BACK, IT ALLOWS US TO BUILD A SEVENTH AND EIGHTH AND NINTH FIRE STATION HERE IN THE NEAR TERM WITH THIS CAPITAL FUND THAT'S THERE, RIGHT? LIKE, THAT'S WHAT I SEE THIS OUTCOME BEING THAT IS WE'RE MAXIMIZE MAXIMIZING THAT PIECE OF IT WHILE MINIMIZING FULLY ANY CONCEPT THAT OUR BILLING STRUCTURE IS FOR REVENUE FOR THE CITY TO OFFSET SOMETHING ELSE. WE ALREADY HAVE A LOW TAX RATE. ALL OF THAT IS BUILT IN. AMBULANCE WILL SHOW UP, AMBULANCE WILL SHOW FUN YOU CALL 911, AND THAT WE DON'T WANT ANYBODY TO NOT CALL FOR FEAR OF EVEN THIS CONVERSATION, OF CITY LEGAL COMING TO FILE A CLAIM, THE RATE GOING UP, THE RATE BEING NEEDED TO PROVIDE THE SERVICE BECAUSE IT IS SOMETHING THAT'S SO INTEGRAL TO WHAT WE DO. SO, THAT'S MY PHILOSOPHICAL FOR A TUESDAY.

>> COUNCILOR GREEN?

>> YEAH, I HAVE NOTHING TO ADD. I AGREE WITH ALL THE MORE DETAILED QUESTIONS THAT NEED TO BE ANSWERED.

AND ALSO, IT WOULD BE HELPFUL, I THINK, FOR THE COUNCIL AS A WHOLE TO UNDERSTAND KIND OF THE GOAL. AND THAT'S PARTLY THE MAYOR AND THE CHIEF FINANCIAL OFFICER WITH YOU, CHIEF, TO UNDERSTAND KIND OF AS -- CONCEPTUALLY AS COUNCILOR LOCKE WAS LAYING OUT, WHAT'S THE GOAL OF THE REVENUE? AND WHAT EXPENSES ARE WE REALLY TRYING TO COVER WITH THAT REVENUE? AND, YOU KNOW -- AND ARE THOSE EXPENSES SOMETHING BIGGER THAN JUST SERVICES? YOU KNOW, TO MEET THE AMBULANCE NEEDS? BUT SOMETHING BIGGER WITHIN PUBLIC SAFETY AND THE FIRE DEPARTMENT.

SO WHAT'S THE GOAL?

>> TO THAT POINT, COUNCILLOR GREEN, THAT'S WHY I BROUGHT UP THAT MANY COMMUNITIES DON'T HAVE THE GENERAL FUND THAT WE DO, AND THEY RELY ON THIS AMBULANCE FUND TO PAY FOR APPARATUS AND OTHER EQUIPMENT THAT OTHERWISE THEIR GENERAL FUND TAX LEVY WILL NOT COVER. AND TO THAT POINT AS WELL IS THAT, YOU KNOW, WHILE WE'RE -- YOU KNOW, WE JUST HAD A PRESENTATION ON LEVELS OF SERVICE AND THE STUDY THAT JUST CAME BACK FROM INDIANA PROFESSIONAL FIREFIGHTERS ON OUR UNSERVED AREAS. WELL, IN ORDER TO DO A STATION 47, WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO PROPERLY NOT ONLY STAFF IT BUT EQUIP IT.

AND THAT'S WHY THINGS LIKE ZACH ACCOMPLISHED EARLIER, FIXING THE STRUCTURAL DEFICIT TO THIS AMBULANCE FUND.

SO WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT THE OVERALL COST OF SERVICES, WE HAVE TO PROPERLY ACCOUNT FOR REPLACEMENT COSTS ASK OVERHEAD THAT MAYBE NOT -- YOU CAN'T JUST ARTICULATE TO ONE I.V. , RIGHT, OR BACK OF SALINE OR -- OR, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER PIECE OF SUPPLY, RIGHT? SO I THINK INCORPORATING THOSE ADDITIONAL OVERHEADS AND COSTS, TRUE COSTS OF THE SERVICE, ARE GOING TO BE IMPORTANT WHEN YOU'RE DEVELOPING THOSE GOALS. ANYTHING ELSE, CHIEF, WE SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT?

>> WE'RE GOING TO LOOK IN -- I'D LIKE TO LOOK INTO THE ABILITY TO HAVE THE CENTRAL CARE FACILITY LIFT ASSIST RATE.

YOU KNOW, AGAIN, THAT'S 1,100 CALLS.

AND, YOU KNOW, WORKING WITH YOU AND YOUR OTHER -- THE MAYOR'S COMMITTEE, SENIORS.

>> YEP.

>> WITH THE NUMBER OF FALLS AND HOW DO WE WORK WITH

[01:10:01]

HOME. >>

YEP. >> THEN HOW WE RESPOND TO THAT.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SOME GRANT DOLLARS AND SOME OPIOID DOLLARS THAT ARE HELPING FUND OUR INTEGRATED HEALTH PARAMEDIC, AND BRUCE IS WORKING WITH OUR SENIOR COMMUNITY ON HELPING THEM UNDERSTAND THAT. SO, WE'RE TRYING TO REDUCE THAT IN THE HOME. WHEN THESE OTHER INDIVIDUALS ARE PLACED IN A CARE FACILITY WHERE THEY SHOULD BE RECEIVING, YOU KNOW -- SHOULDN'T BE CALLING ADDITIONAL OUTSIDE RESOURCES TO PROVIDE A BASIC SERVICE, I WOULD LIKE TO LOOK INTO THE CHARGE OF THAT. AND WE'LL BRING THAT BACK AS WELL.

>> ANY OTHER RECOMMENDATIONS, PLEASE BRING IT. THOSE ARE SOME REALLY GREAT DEPARTMENTS UP THERE.

>> UH-HUH. >> THROUGHOUT THE STATE.

GU BUT I TRULY BELIEVE WE'RE

BETTER. >> I CONCUR.

THANKS FOR THE DISCUSSION, APPRECIATE IT.

[b. Analysis of Audit Committee]

>> THANK YOU, CHIEF. YOU, E.M.S. CHIEF YOUNG.

NEXT, WE'LL MOVE TO AUDIT COMMITTEE.

COUNCILOR LOCKE, DID YOU WANT TO HAVE A DISCUSSION ABOUT -- I KNOW WE HAVEN'T STARTED THIS YET, BUT HOW WE WANT TO APPROACH IDEAS ON HOW WE WANT TO APPROACH THIS AND FURTHER DISCUSSION?

>> YEAH, FOR SURE. THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN A TOPIC. WE OBVIOUSLY HAVE IT ON COMMITTEE IN OUR ORDINANCES. IT IS PSEUDO USED.

IT WAS SET UP IN A WAY THAT REALLY IN ITS CAPACITY, IT WOULD BE VERY, VERY USEFUL IF THERE WERE FINDINGS OR MANY FINDINGS IN AN AUDIT. THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN OFTEN BECAUSE WE DO HAVE AN OUTSTANDING CONTROLLER.

BUT CONCEPTUALLY, THE IDEA OF AN AUDIT COMMITTEE, OF THIRD- PARTY ANALYSIS IN A WAY FOR THE CITY COUNCIL ITSELF TO SPECIFICALLY BE ENGAGED IN THAT PROJECT MAKES A TON OF SENSE.

SO I'VE HAD CONVERSATIONS WITH SOME OF THE MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE THAT STAND TODAY AS WELL WITH ZACH AND TEAM AND CITY LEGAL, JUST ABOUT HOW TO MAKE THIS A MORE WORTHWHILE AND STRUCTURED PROCESS. ON THE STATESIDE, WE HAD MANY, MANY KIND OF AUDIT COMMITTEES, INTERNAL AUDIT REVIEWS. A LOT OF IT WAS KIND OF A GROUP OF INTERNAL ACTORS. NO NECESSARY COMMITTEE, BUT THE BAY STATE GOVERNMENT WAS SET UP, YOU HAD A COMPTROLLER, WHICH WAS THE AUDITOR OF STATE, YOU HAD A TREASURER WHO WAS A FINANCIAL OFFICER. NOT RELATED TO THE KIND OF INNER WORKINGS OF THAT DIVISION. AND EVERYBODY HAD TO COME TOGETHER AND AGREE ON IT. SO THE IDEA OF HAVING THIS BE MORE STRUCTURED, MORE A PART OF THE PROCESS, AND A PART OF MAKING THE RECOMMENDATION BACK TO COUNCIL TO ACCEPT THE AUDIT ON BEHALF OF KIND OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH PULLED TOGETHER AUDIT PROCESS THAT IS TRULY AUDITING ALL SIDES AND ALL FACETS OF THE GOVERNMENT MAKES SENSE. SO GOAL IS TO KIND OF OPERATIONALIZE IT THIS YEAR.

GOOD BUY- IN AND FEEDBACK FROM, AGAIN, THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH. AND THE LEGAL DEPARTMENT OF HOW THIS COULD WORK. ULTIMATELY IF WE HAVE CLEAN AUDITS, THAT'S THE BEST TIME TO HAVE IN PLACE THE RIGHT STRUCTURES FOR CHECKS AND BALANCES, UNDERSTANDING COMMUNICATION. SO IN THE FUTURE, IF THERE WERE TO BE PLACES WHERE THERE WERE FINDINGS OR STRUCTURAL ISSUES WITHIN KIND OF THE OPERATIONAL SUBSET THAT AN AUDIT FOUND THAT WE WOULD KNOW HOW TO COMMUNICATE THOSE BACK AND MAKE CHANGES AS QUICKLY AND AS EFFICIENTLY AS POSSIBLE THROUGH ORDINANCE OR RESOLUTION AS WAS NEEDED ON THE LEGISLATIVE SIDE. SO WE'LL TAKE A -- KIND OF THAT ENDEAVOR HERE AS THE WEATHER STARTS TO TURN BUT BEFORE WE KIND OF START THE PROCESS OF GOING THROUGH THE AUDIT. AGAIN, THAT WORKING ENTITY THAT IS A PART OF KIND OF THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH PROCESS WITH THE AUDIT ITSELF IS HERE FOR THIS YEAR.

SO SERGEI SPECIFICALLY HAS SAID HE HAS IDEAS ON HOW TO MAKE SURE THAT IT WORKS WELL AND THEN JUST ENSURING THAT WE DO IT, REPORT BACK, AND ITERATE FROM THERE THE AUDIT COMMITTEE IS THE

[c. City Code Review]

GOAL. >> THANK YOU, COUNCILOR LOCKE.

QUESTIONS? COUNCILOR LOCKE? NEXT, CITY CODE REVIEW. SO THIS WAS SORT OF DRIVEN BY THE FINDINGS IN AT LEAST THE FINANCE SECTION OF CITY CODE BY OUR CFO AND CONTROLLER ZACH JACKSON, IT WAS IDENTIFIED THAT A NUMBER OF ITEMS WITHIN CITY CODE ARE NOT NECESSARILY REFLECTED ON HOW WE OPERATE NOW AS A SECOND CLASS CITY.

AND SO WE WANTED TO RAISE THE DISCUSSION WITH ATTORNEY BENJAMIN HERE TODAY AND SEE WHAT WOULD BE THE RECOMMENDED APPROACH FROM OFFICE OF

[01:15:01]

THERE'S NOT REFERENCE TO AA TREASURER, THERE'S NOT % REFERENCE TO FIVE COUNCILMEMBERS VERSUS NINE, ET CETERA, ET CETERA. AND DO YOU HAVE -- WHAT RECOMMENDATION ON -- YOU GUYS WOULD HAVE TO -- OFFICE OF CORPORATION COUNSEL WOULD HAVE TO SORT OF CONDUCT THIS REVIEW?

>> I THINK YOU HAVE A COUPLE OF SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT HERE.

I MEAN, YOU COULD RUN IT IN THE SAME WAY THAT THAT'S LAND USE KIND OF RUNS THE U.D.O.

YOU CAN KINDIVE TAKE IT CHAPTER BY CHAPTER, KIND OF GOING THROUGH.

YOU COULD HAVE LEGAL, THE LAW DEPARTMENT, RUN THROUGH ITS OWN INTERNAL AUDIT, IF YOU WILL, OF THE INDIVIDUAL SECTIONS TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE IS -- IT HAS BEEN UPDATED IN ITS ENTIRETY.

THERE'S ALSO AN OPPORTUNITY HERE ON A BROADER SECOND SCHOOL OF THOUGHT IS, YOU COULD LOOK AT A RECODIFICATION. YOU COULD KIND OF MAKE THIS BIGGER. I MEAN, CITY CODE IS SUCH THAT IT GETS AMENDED AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN. AND IT IS TIMING.

THERE IS PROBABLY -- SOMETHING THAT COULD BE PART OF IT. AND SO, I MEAN -- THERE'S THAT AND THEN THE LESS ASPECT OF IT IS THAT IT JUST GETS DELEGATED ON THE CORPORATION COUNSEL SIDE FOR CITY LEGAL. WE GO THROUGH IT ALL AND THEN BRING A FULL PACKET OF RECOMMENDATIONS FOR REVIEW ON JUST KIND OF PULLING US UP TO SPEED ON IT.

YOU SIT AND -- THERE WAS A -- I WILL TELL YOU THERE WAS AN ATTEMPT TO DO THIS. IT IS QUITE A MAMMOTH TASK TO KIND OF PULL EVERYTHING THROUGH TOGETHER. AND THERE ARE PROCESSES THAT ARE IN PLACE THAT GO BACK FROM GODFICATION THAT OCCURRED, I BELIEVE IN THE EARLY '90S, AND THERE'S LANGUAGE THERE THAT CERTAINLY SHOULD BE UPDATED. IS IT RELEVANT CURRENTLY FOR TODAY? CAN WE TIDY IT UP, CAN WE PULL IT TOGETHER? BUT AT A -- MY RECOMMENDATION WOULD PROBABLY BE THE FORMER OF ALL THOSE APPROACHES, WHICH WOULD BE KIND OF, TAKE THIS COMMITTEE AND GO THROUGH CHAPTER BY CHAPTER AND GET A FEEL FOR, ARE WE COMFORTABLE WITH -- IS COUNCIL COMFORTABLE WITH HOW IT IS CURRENTLY CODIFIED? SULS IT FLOW, MAKE SENSE? CAN WE MAKE EASY CHANGES TO IT? AT THE POINT WHERE YOU'RE FEELING LIKE, WHY IS THIS PARTICULAR PROVISION IN THIS SECTION? IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN HERE.

TO THE EXTENT YOU'RE STARTING TO FEEL÷÷ THAT THIS IS CREATING MORE WORK AND IT WOULD JUST BE EASIER TO RECODIFY, THAT'S KIND OF WHERE WE COULD THEN GO FROM THERE.

>> EXPLAIN -- I'M THE ONLY NONATTORNEY PRESENT AT THE COMMITTEE TODAY. JUST FOR THE RECORD, JEFF IS BUSY WITH HIS NEW BRANDBABY. THAT'S WHY COUNCILOR MORRELL IS NOT ABL TO MAKE IT.

>> A RECODIFICATION OF CODE IS YOU TAKE THE EXISTING CODE THAT IS THERE, AND YOU RE- ENACT IT, BASICALLY. YOU PUT IT BACK INTO EFFECT UNDER A DIFFERENT CODIFICATION SYSTEM.

SO WHERE WE CURRENTLY HAVE THIS CHAPTER, ARTICLE, SECTION PROCESS THAT IS IN PLACE, YOU CAN REWORK THAT TO REALLY BE WHATEVER SYSTEM YOU WANT IT TO BE. YOU CAN TAKE A LOOK AT DIFFERENT UNITS OF GOVERNMENT THROUGHOUT THE STATE AND SEE THAT THEY EACH -- ALTHOUGH THEY MAY HAVE SIMILAR ORDINANCES RELATED TO ANIMAL CARE OR NOISE OR HOW THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH AND THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCHES ARE RUN, THEY WILL BE FRAMED DIFFERENTLY. AND IT'S MORE -- IT'S ORGANIZATION.

BUT IT'S ALSO A GOOD OPPORTUNITY FOR CLEANUP.

BECAUSE YOU'RE GOING TO GO THROUGH IT ALL ANYWAY.

AND YOU GET TO KIND OF SAY, THIS IS THE BODY OF LAW

[01:20:01]

WHEREAS ORDINARILY, WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO SEE IS WHAT IS BROUGHT FOR THIS COUNCIL AS INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS. THIS ORDINANCE AMENDING THESE PARTICULAR PROVISIONS.

BUT THE RECODIFICATION ALLOWS FOR A FULL HOLISTIC VIEW OF THAT.

IT AS MAMMOTH UNDERTAKING.

>> YEAH. >> IT IS BIG.

BUT IT IS DONE FROM TIME TO TIME. AND TYPICALLY YOU LOOK TO, WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME THAT IT WAS DONE? AND I BELIEVE THE LAST TIME IT WAS DONE WAS IN THE '90S.

>> HM.

>> I WOULD HAVE TO GET THE EXACT DATE. BUT IT HAS BEEN AWHILE.

>> MR. CHAIRMAN, JUST IF I CAN. YOU WERE SPOT ON IN KIND OF DESCRIBING ONE OF THE AREAS I WAS PICKING ON OR PICKING UP LAST YEAR JUST IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, ON THE -- THE WP CONTROLLER EXISTING IN A SEPARATE BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT THAN THE MAYOR.

THERE'S SOME OF THOSE LIKE THAT THAT YOU'RE DESCRIBING THAT DON'T REALLY REFLECT AS WE TRANSITION FROM -- TO CLASS TWO CITY. I THINK THERE'S OTHER THINGS IN HERE -- THIS IS PROBABLY GOING TO GET A LITTLE BIT MORE COMPLEX.

AND THAT IS, AS I WAS DESCRIBING SOME OF THE LEAVE POLICIES AND PROPOSING SOME AMENDMENTS TO THOSE BACK I THINK IN JANUARY, AS I LOOK AT SOME OF THE CODE, I'M KIND OF SURPRISED THAT SOME OF THOSE THINGS ARE IN CODE AND NOT IN POLICY. AND AGAIN, JUST AS YOU THINK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, DIFFERENT PERSONNEL POLICIES, THERE IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE SOME EXCEPTION THAT YOU NEED TO MAKE SOMEWHERE. AND SOME OF THOSE PERSONNEL POLICIES ARE SO -- NOT THAT THEY'RE NECESSARILY RIGID IN STATUTE OR IN OUR CODE, BUT WHEN IT SAYS, AN EMPLOYEE CANNOT TAKE ANY TIME OFF, ANY P.T.O. , UNTIL THEY'VE BEEN HERE TWO MONTHS, PERIOD, I CAN COME UP WITH A THOUSAND REASONS WHY WE MIGHT NEED TO MAKE SOME SORT OF EXCEPTION TO SOMETHING LIKE THAT OR SIMILAR. I JUST FEEL LIKE THERE'S SOME OF THESE WE PROBABLY OUGHT TO TALK ABOUT AND DO THESE REALLY BELONG IN STATUTE OR US ADOPTING THEM? MOST OF THEM ARE ALREADY ADOPTED IN POLICY ELSEWHERE.

BUT AGAIN, SOME OF THEM DON'T. I'D LIKE TO MAKE SOME RECOMMENDATIONS ON THOSE SEPARATELY FROM JUST HOW WE REWRITE THEM, BUT SHOULD THESE EVEN BE IN CODE AT ALL?

>> DISCUSSION. COMMITTEE?

>> MY GUT -- THIS IS NOT PHILOSOPHICAL -- IS THAT THE ONGOING PROCESS OF KIND OF THE NEW ADMINISTRATION AND NEW COUNCIL UNDERTAKING SOME OF THESE THINGS FRESH ARE GOING TO GIVE US A LOT OF OPPORTUNITIES TO MAKE STRATEGIC AND INCREMENTAL CHANGE TO THIS IN A WAY THAT A RECODIFICATION SEEMS LIKE A HUBRIS PROCESS AT THIS POINT FOR US.

BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO TOUCH ALL OF THESE THINGS.

I LOVE THE IDEAIDEA OF, IF YOU SEE SOMETHING, SAY SOMETHING. BRING THINGS.

ASK FOR RECOMMENDATION. USING THIS COMMITTEE, MAYBE, AS WELL AS A KIND OF FUNNEL POINT FOR THOSE THINGS SO THAT WE CAN SEE -- I KNOW AS WE WENT THROUGH THE PROCESS OF EVEN THE COMPTROLLER CHANGES LAST YEAR TO GIVE YOU KIND OF AUTHORITY AND STRUCTURE, IT CAME HERE ANYWAY FROM COUNCIL. SO THE IDEA OF MAKING RECOMMENDATIONS UP THROUGH A RESOLUTION OR ORDINANCE PROCESS AT THE CITY COUNCIL LEVEL MAY BE ABLE TO BE ALLEVIATED IN SOME CAPACITY BY CREATE ING. AND A DISCUSSION POINT OR PROCESS WHERE MAYBE THE FINANCE COMMITTEE, THINGS RELATED TO FINANCE OR STRUCTURE, BECOMES A PLACE WHERE THOSE OPEN CONVERSATIONS ON OUTSTANDING CODE ISSUES MAY BE ABLE TO BE HAD.

I SAT THROUGH A LAND USE A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, WATCHED HOW THEY'RE DOING THE U.D.O. PROCESS, WHICH IS VERY -- ALMOST RECODIFICATION ON ITS FACE, BUT ACTUALLY JUST KIND OF A REVIEW, ANALYSIS PROCEDURALLY GOING THROUGH ALL OF THOSE PIECES INDIVIDUALLY. I DON'T KNOW THAT WE NEED TO NECESSARILY DO THAT FOR THE REST OF THE CODE. BUT THE IDEA OF HAVING AN OPEN, HONEST DIALOGUE ABOUT HOW THESE THINGS HAVE BEEN SET, KNOWING SOME OF THEM WERE WRITTEN LONG BEFORE I WAS BORN. THE REST OF YOU WERE PROBABLY HERE.

BUT THE IDEA THAT WE CAN TOUCH MANY OF THESE THINGS IN THETHE COURSE OF BUSINESS AND GET TO US THAT BETTER POINT THROUGH TRANSITION SEEMS TO MAKE A TON OF SENSE TO ME.

>> SO, WOULD THAT BE ADDRESS THEM AS THEY COME UP, WHEN THEY'RE BROUGHT TO US BY STAFF? OR ACTUALLY LOOKING AT -- TAKING A LOOK AT SECTIONS?

>> YEAH, WELL -- I THINK IT COULD BE A DUAL APPROACH. KIND OF TO COUNSEL'S POINT, THE IDEA OF THOSE THINGS THAT ARE ANTIQUATED BASED ON CHANGES

[01:25:02]

ONE, WE'RE DOING THINGS, AGAIN, BY STATE LAW THAT WE HAVE TO DO BASED ON CHANGES IN OUR STRUCTURE OVER THE COURSE OF TIME, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, SECOND CLASS CITY STATUS. GREAT EXAMPLE.

MAYBE THERE'S A WAY TO KNOCK OUT A TON OF THAT PROCEDURALLY WITH AMENDMENTS FROM A LAW DIVISION PERSPECTIVE AND THEN CARVE OFF OTHER THINGS AS WE GO.

THE ONE KIND OF HESITATION POINT, OBVIOUSLY IN ALL OF IT IS MAKING DRAMATIC CHANGES TO THINGS THAT WE DON'T HAVE TIME OR ABILITY TO KIND OF ANALYZE AS THEY'RE BEING APPLIED. WHICH WITH A LONGER TENURED COUNCIL, A LONGER TENURE YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO IN A WAY THAT CAN MAKE SENSE BECAUSE YOU'VE KIND OF HIT EVERYTHING AND YOU KNOW WHERE IT NEEDS TO BE. THIS ALLOWS US TO BE AGILE AND MAKE CHANGES TO IMPROVE CITY AS THEY COME UP IN THE RIGHT WAY.

I THINK IT WOULD BE GREAT USE OF THIS YEAR'S FINANCE COMMITTEE'S EXPERTISE, ANALYSIS, UNDERSTANDING TO KIND OF UNDERTAKE ALL THOSE THINGS RELATED TO THE FINANCIAL ASPECTS OF CITY GOVERNMENT AND MAKE SURE THEY'RE MODERNIZED TO RUN APPROPRIATELY.

>> AND WE'RE ALSO THE RULES COMMITTEE, TOO.

>> YEAH, I AGREE WITH WHAT COUNCILOR LOCKE SAID.

I LIKE A MORE TARGETED APPROACH RATHER THAN JUST ONE HUGE, EXPANSIVE REVIEW OF EVERYTHING. ALSO, RIGHT NOW WE'RE IN A LULL. WHERE THINGS ARE GOING TO START PICKING UP IN A FEW MONTHS.

AS WE GET INTO THIS, THE BUCKET CYCLE, OUTSTANDING BUDGET PROCESS THAT COUNCILOR TAYLOR, YOU'RE PUTTING TOGETHER WITH THE CFO.

SO RIGHT NOW, WE HAVE SOME TIME. BUT YEAH, I DON'T WANT TO GET SO EMBEDDED INTO SOME MASSIVE REVIEW.

I'D LIKE IT A LITTLE BIT MORE TARGETED.

>> AS FAR AS TARGETED, JUST WOULD WE WANT CORPORATION COUNSEL TO JUST TAKE A LOOK AT THE ORDINANCE AS IT RELATES SPECIFICALLY TO ONLY SECOND CLASS CITY STATUS?

>> THAT -- YES. AND THEN ALSO,

AS -- >> H.R.?

>> PROBABLY ALREADY LOOKED THROUGH AND HAS HIS ONUS OF THINGS THAT HE'S LEARNED DURING HIS FIRST YEAR.

USING THOSE AS KIND OF A, YOU KNOW -- A FOCUS.

>> JUST LIKE TODAY, WE WENT THROUGH AND WE HAVE THE HAMILTON COUNTY MEDICAL SERVICES TAX.

SHOULD REMIND THE COUNTY ABOUT THAT.

MAYBE WE HAVEN'T BEEN GETTING PAID. I'M JUST TEASING. YEAH, I'M ALMOST POSITIVE THERE'S NO SUCH THING. I THINK THAT PREDATES US COMPLETELY, ANNEXING ALL OF CLAY TOWNSHIP.

MIGHT HAVE PRECEDED THE P.S.A.P. OR THE 911 TAX WHEN MAYBE WE WERE CARRYING OUR OWN DISPATCH, 911 -- EVERYBODY HAD THEIR OWN 911 DISPATCH SERVICES OR SOMETHING. BUT WHO KNOWS, IT'S A MYSTERY.

OKAY, SO WE'LL -- DOES THAT WORK FOR YOU, BENJAMIN? ZACH? OKAY. ANY OTHER --

>> I'D JUST LIKE TO CLARIFY. SO, THIS WOULD BE A REVIEW OF THE ENTIRE CITY CODE TO MAKE SURE THAT ALL REFERENCES ARE PROPERLY REFLECTIVE OF SECOND CLASS CITY STATUS, BUT ALSO A MORE SURGICAL APPROACH TO CERTAIN PROCEDURES THAT MAY BE IN PLACE THROUGH PARTNERSHIP WITH DEPARTMENTS WITHIN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH TO BE ABLE TO BRING TO THIS -- TO THIS COMMITTEE THAT MAY NOT MAKE SENSE OR MAY BE ANTIQUATED?

>> I SEE CORPORATION COUNSEL DOING A GENERAL SEARCH FOR VERBIAGE RELATED TO CLERK/TREASURER THAT MAY BE -- NEED TO BE CHANGED TO CONTROLLER OR THINGS THAT RELATE TO SECOND CLASS CITY.

YOU'RE NOT READING EVERY SECTION OF THE CODE, MAYBE DOING KEY WORD SEARCHES OR WHAT HAVE

[01:30:01]

WITHIN THEIR FIRST 60 DAYS ON THE JOB HERE BECAUSE OF SOME EXTENUATING CIRCUMSTANCES, IN EFFECT THEY'RE VIOLATING CITY CODE LAW.

SO THOSE MORE -- THOSE ITEMS CAN MAYBE BE VETTED BY ZACH AS HE SEES FIT.

>> OKAY.

UNDERSTOOD. >> THANK YOU, SIR.

YES, SIR, COUNCILOR LOCKE.

>> YEAH, JUST THE IDEA OF ENSURING KIND OF COMPLIANCE WITH THE STARTS THAT WE HAVE TO COMPLY WITH THROUGHOUT. SOME OF THESE THINGS AREN'T TOUCHED. THEY WERE WRITTEN IN 1990, THEY HAVEN'T BEEN TOUCHED SINCE.

SO, THERE HAVE BEEN MANY SESSIONS, MANY STRUCTURES.

KNOWING WHAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE SOME KIND OF TWEAKS.

SORRY, WHATEVER I SAID, DIDN'T MATTER.

BUT THE IDEA OF, LIKE, HOW DO WE OPERATIONALIZE THE ABILITY TO ENSURE THAT WE'RE KEEPING UP WITH ORDINANCES AS THEY GO.

THAT'S A HARD THING TO DO. IT'S A LOT OF WORDS AND A LOT OF STRUCTURE.

I WAS SAYING, WHEN I DIDN'T HAVE MY MIC ON, THE IDEA OF THAT LEGISLATIVE SESSION BEING A LONG SESSION, FIRST ONE FROM A CHANGE IN ADMINISTRATION ON THE STATESIDE WEEKS GOING TO HAVE PROBABLY SOME THINGS THAT COME DOWN THAT WILL NEED TO BE KIND OF ADDRESSED AND ITERATED ON IN OUR LOCAL ORDINANCES. THAN UNDERTAKING THIS KIND OF HOLISTIC APPROACH, THIS LEGAL REVIEW OF THINGS THAT ARE THERE TO ENSURE THEY'RE IN CURRENT COMPLIANCE WILL BE A GOOD EXERCISE MOVING INTO KIND OF FUTURE PROCESS THERE, TOO. ANYTHING THAT YOU SEE, I WOULD BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO THINK ABOUT AND ITERATE ON THIS COMMITTEE TO MAKE CHANGES AND TWEAK TO MAKE SURE IT'S AT THE RIGHT POINT.

>> IS THERE ANY OTHER DISCUSSION OR MATTERS THAT NEED TO BE BROUGHT FORWARD TO THE COMMITTEE? IF NOT, I'LL ACCEPT A MOTION TO

ADJOURN. >> SO MOVED.

>> SECONDED. >> ALL IN FAVOR? MOTION, WE'LL ADJOURN AT 7:34 P.M.

* This transcript was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.