[Public Comment]
          [00:00:25]
          START WITH LAWRENCE MCCORMACK. WOULD YOU PLEASE APPROACH THE PODIUM AND LET ME READ THE RULES AS YOU WALK UP. THIS IS TIME OF AGENDA WE CAN HEAR FROM THE PUBLIC AND YOUR COMMENTS ARE VERY IMPORTANT TO US. THOSE WHO HAVE SIGNED IN TO DO SO SHOULD 
          GO TO THE PODIUM AFTER -- >> WELCOME TO THE TUESDAY, MAY 13 -- ALL COMMENTS ARE LIMITED TO THREE MINUTES AND THE LIGHT BY THE PODIUM WILL START GREEN ONCE YOU PRESS IT. DON'T PRESS IT YET. THEN WE'LL GO YELLOW WITH -- 30 SECONDS LEFT. THEN TURN RED WHEN YOUR TIME IS UP. ANY FORM OF DEMONSTRATIONS SUCH AS SIGNS, CLAPPING AND CHEERING ARE NOT ALLOWED. FAILURE TO COMPLY MAY RESULT IN YOU BEING ASKED TO LEAVE. MR. MCCORMACK? 
          FLOOR IS YOURS, SIR. >> AM I ON? 
          >> YES, SIR. >> OKAY. THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN AND MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE. MY NAME IS LAWRENCE MCCORMACK. AND I HAVE LIVED IN CARAMEL SINCE 2017 AND I RISE IN SUPPORT OF THE ORDINANCE. I LIVE IN A SMALL NEIGHBORHOOD ON THE NORTHEAST SIDE OF CARMEL. AFTER WATCHING NUMEROUS HOMES BE PURCHASED BY OUT OF STATE RENTAL COMPANIES WITH ALL CASH OFFERS OVER THEIR ASKING PRICE, I CONTACTED OUR HOA FOR HELP. THE HOA BOARD UNDERTOOK A THOROUGH REVIEW OF THIS TREND AND THE PROCESS TO AMEND OUR BYLAWS TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE. UNFORTUNATELY, THE NUMBER OF RENTALS HAD REACHED THE HIGH ENOUGH PERCENTAGE OF HOMES IN OUR NEIGHBORHOOD THAT IT WOULD BE ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE FOR US TO AMEND THE ORDINANCE OR SORRY, THE BYLAWS. SO WITHOUT THE RESOURCES OR A PATH FORWARD WITH THIS EFFORT, IT WAS TABLED TO ADDRESS OTHER PRESSING NEEDS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD. WHEN I HEARD ABOUT FISHERS TAKING STEPS TO ADDRESS CORPORATE RENTALS CITY-WIDE. I WAS EXCITED TODAY SEE LOCAL GOVERNMENT FIGHTING BACK TO ADDRESS THIS PROBLEM. I AM GRATEFUL FOR COUNCILMEMBER TAYLOR FOR INTRODUCING THE ORDINANCE AND THE CITY TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEM IN OUR CITY. THE CITY HAS DONE AN EXCELLENT JOB OF CREATING HOMES, DIVERSE HOUSING OPTIONS FOR ITS RESIDENTS INCLUDING SINGLE FAMILY HOMES, CONDOS, AND NUMEROUS MULTIFAMILY DEVELOPMENTS. OUT OF STATE CORPORATE LAND LANDLORDS -- THE DETRIMENTAL IMPACTS ON NEIGHBORHOODS BECAUSE THEY FAIL TO MAINTAIN THEIR PROPERTIES AND ADDRESS PROBLEMS IN A TIMELY MANNER. THE ABILITY TO BLOCK POTENTIAL HOME BUYERS FROM ENTERING THE MARKET. 
          UNFORTUNATELY, OWNING A HOME IN CARMEL HAS BECOME UNATTAINABLE FOR MANY FIRST TIME HOME BUYERS AS A RESULT. IT IS ALSO CREATED BLIGHT WHEN ABSENTEE LANDLORDS FAIL TO MAINTAIN THEIR PROPERTIES. AND SO I URGE YOU TO PASS THIS COMMON SENSE SOLUTION TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEM FACED BY NEIGHBORHOODS THROUGHOUT CARMEL. 
          PLEASE PREVENT OUT OF STATE INTERESTS FROM DECIDING WHAT IS BEST FOR OUR COMMUNITY AND OUR RESIDENTS. THANK YOU. 
          >> THANK YOU. NEXT UP, WE HAVE RICK ANDERSON. RICK? 
          >> ALL SET. JUST TECHNOLOGY INVOLVED. I'M -- IN THE BAD PLACE. SO AGAIN I'D LIKE TO SPEAK ON AGAIN ORDINANCE D-2770-25. MY NAME IS RICK ANDERSON AND I'M WITH THE HOA BOARD AT THE WESTONS NEIGHBORHOOD, AND WE ARE AT 106TH AND BASICALLY 106TH AND MICHIGAN. AROUND 350-ISH. WE HAVE THREE DIFFERENT TYPES OF HOMES AND WE'VE GOT SOME PATIO HOMES BUT WE'VE GOT A COUPLE OTHER TYPES OF HOMES IN OUR NEIGHBORHOOD. I WOULD -- I WOULD IF I COULDDITTO WHAT LAWRENCE SAID TO DO THAT. THAT WAS PERFECT. AND WE ARE -- WE ARE 
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DEFINITELY IN FAVOR OF KEEPING SOME SORT OF A CAP AT 10% OR LESS. YOU KNOW, WE HAVE DEFINITELY NOTICED THE BIG CORPORATIONS COMING IN AND ALSO NOT NECESSARILY BIG CORPORATIONS BUT REALLY ANYBODY BUYING UP A LOT OF THESE PROPERTIES AND UNFORTUNATELY, THE WAY OUR HOA IS CURRENTLY SET UP, IS WE HAVE TO HAVE A CERTAIN NUMBER OF VOTES TO KEEP IT AT 10% AND WE BARELY HAVE ENOUGH PEOPLE THAT SHOW UP, YOU KNOW, FOR ANYTHING. 
          SO IF YOU GUYS WOULD ADOPT SOME SORT OF A CAP, CARMEL-WIDE, WE WOULD BE IN TOTAL FAVOR OF THAT. SO. THAT'S IT. 
          >> THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU, SIR. NEXT WE HAVE 
          ED SHAUGHNESSY. >> THANK YOU. COMMITTEE, AND CHAIR. I'M GOING TO READ A LETTER THAT OUR BOARD PRESIDENT OF OUR HOA SUBMITTED TO RICH THIS AFTERNOON. SO THIS IS COMING FROM SUSAN MCCLAIM, OUR BOARD PRESIDENT. AS A CARMEL HOMEOWNER AND A REALTOR I SEE BOTH SIDES OF ARGUMENT. 
          PURCHASING A HOME IS THE BILGEST PURCHASE THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WILL EVER MAKE. THEY WANT THAT PURCHASE TO BE IN A GOOD -- A GOOD INVESTMENT NOW AND FOR THEIR FUTURE. CARMEL IS A VERY POPULAR LOCATION FOR MANY REASONS. AND PEOPLE WANT TO LIVE HERE. UNFORTUNATELY, POPULAR COMES TO HOMES. HOME PRICES AND SO NOT EVERYONE CAN AFFORD TO LIVE HERE. CARMEL HAS BEEN ENCOURAGING HOAS THAT DON'T HAVE RENTAL RESTRICTIONS IN PLACE TO WORK ON CORRECTING THAT. I LIVE IN SUCH A NEIGHBORHOOD AND SUSAN IS BY NEIGHBOR -- MY NEIGHBOR. WE ARE ACTIVELY WORKING ON PUTTING SOME RESTRICTIONS AND RULES IN PLACE. BUT IT'S NOT AN EASY PROCESS. OF THE COMPLAINTS OUR BOARD RECEIVES, OVER 90% OF THEM ARE IN REGARDS TO THE RENTAL PROPERTIES IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD. A AS A REALTOR I HAVE SEEN A NEIGHBORHOOD VALUES DESTROYED WHEN THE NUMBER OF RENTALS GETS OUT OF CONTROL. I ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT NO ONE WANTS THE GOVERNMENT TO TELL THEM WHAT THEY CAN AND CAN'T DO WITH THEIR HOME. AS A HOMEOWNER, MY PRIORITY IS TO PROTECT MY INVESTMENT. I HAVE ALSO BEEN A TENANT TWICE BOTH TIMES I RENTED FROM FRIENDS AND ID ALWAYS MADE SURE TO TAKE VERY GOOD CADE OF THE HOME. TENANTS ARE NEVER GOING TO TAKE BETTER CARE OF A HOME THAN MOST HOMEOWNERS WILL. 
          TRIMMING TREES AND SHRUBS AND PAINTING AND POWER WASHING THE EXTERIOR UPDATING ET CETERA. ARE TO THE BENEFIT OF THE HOMEOWNER, BY INCREASING THEIR EQUITY SO WHY WOULD A TENANT SPEND THEIR TIME AND MONEY TO DO THOSE THINGS? LANDLORDS ARE OFF-SITE AND ARE LOOKING AT THE BOTTOM LINE. SO THEY ONLY DO WHAT IS NECESSARY TO KEEP THE HOME HABITABLE. THIS IS THE NATURE OF RENTALS. EVERYONE THINKS THAT THEY WILL BE THAT LANDLORD THAT WILL BE THE EXCEPTION. BUT I HAVE FOUND THAT WHEN IT IS OUT OF SIGHT, IT IS OUT OF MIND. WHEN I AM WORKING WITH A BUYER, WE ARE -- AND WE SEE A GREAT HOME WITH A HOUSE IN DISREPAIR NEXT DOOR, THE FIRST THING I CHECK IS OWNERSHIP OF THAT NEIGHBOR. IF IT'S A RENTAL HOME I WILL THEN NOTIFY MY BUYER OF THAT PIECE OF INFORMATION AND IT WILL IMMEDIATELY DROP THE VALUE OF THAT HOME AND IN THEIR MIND. THE HOMEOWNER NOW LOST SOME OF THAT HARD-EARNED EQUITY BECAUSE OF THE RENTAL HOME AND IF THERE ARE A LOT OF RENTALS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, THAT STARTS TO STIGMATIZE THAT NEIGHBORHOOD. SO FOR ME, PERSONALLY, I HAVE TO WEIGH MY FUTURE INVESTMENT VALUE VERSUS MY THOUGHTS ON GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT. SUSAN MCCLAIN WHO'S A LOCAL REALTOR AND I WOULD SECOND THOSE THOUGHTS AND I HAVE OWNED FIVE HOMES IN MY LIFETIME. TWO IN INDIANAPOLIS AND TWO HOMES HERE IN CARMEL AND ONE IN HANCOCK. WE'VE RENTED HOMES WHEN WE FIRST GOT MARRIED. 
          I'M STILL MARRIED TO THE SAME WOMAN FOR 51 YEARS AND THAT'S -- BECAUSE SHE'S AN EXCEPTIONALLY GOOD WOMAN. I OWNED A RENTAL DUPLEX IN INDIANAPOLIS AND RENOVATED THAT HOME AND LATER SOLD IT TO A TENANT. 
          >> THANK YOU SIR. APPRECIATE YOU SIR. 
          >> OH, THAT WAS IT. >> WANT TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE HAS THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME. APPRECIATE YOUR COMMENTS. TOM 
          LAZARRA, TOM? >> THANK YOU. I AM HERE TO SPEAK ON ORDINANCE -- 2770-25. THE RENTAL ORDINANCE. I OPPOSE THE ORDINANCE IN ALMOST EVERY WAY, SHAPE AND FORM. I HAVE LIVED IN CARMEL SINCE 1973. I HAVE OWNED AND BEEN ON THE BOARDS OF DIRECTORS OF VARIOUS REAL ESTATE FIRMS INCLUDING THE TUCKER 
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COMPANY, REMAX AND OTHERS. I HAVE MANAGED RENTAL PROPERTY IN CARMEL FOR THAT SAME PERIOD F TIME. AND AND ALL OF MY TENANTS MAINTAIN THEIR PROPERTIES. SOME NOT AS WELL AS SOME OF THEIR NEIGHBORS. CERTAINLY EVERYONE HAS A VESTED INTEREST IN THEIR OWN HOME. AND LIKES TO MAINTAIN THE PROPERTY AS BEST THEY CAN. 
          SOME PEOPLE HAVE NO INTEREST IN THAT TYPE OF MAINTENANCE. 
          DEPENDING ON WHERE THEY COME AND. I OFTEN HAVE PEOPLE COME FROM OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES THAT LIKE A GARDEN. AND THEY DON'T WANT TO APPLY FERTILIZER OR WEED CONTROL. THUS THEY HAVE LOTS OF DANDELIONS. AND SO THERE ARE VARIOUS THINGS THAT CAN POP UP. BUT FOR THE MOST PART, HOMEOWNERS' ASSOCIATIONS HAVE TO ENFORCE THEIR OWN RULES AND REGULATIONS. WHICH THEY HAVE. 
          AND ALL THE SUBDIVISIONS THAT THE GENTLEMAN PRIOR MENTIONED THEY HAVE RULES AND REGULATIONS AND THEY CAN ENFORCE THOSE RULES. IN THE OVERALL I CAN'T FIND AND I HAVE RUN THIS STATISTICS, I CAN'T FIND AN OWNER THAT'S OUT OF STATE THAT OWNS MORE THAN -- THIS IS A LITTLE SPECULATIVE ON MY PART. I DON'T HAVE PERFECT STATISTICS. THAT OWNS MORE THAN 45 HOMES. IN THE CITY OF CARMEL. NOW MAYBE THERE'S SOMEONE THAT OWNS 100 AND I'M UNAWARE OF IT. BUT I CAN'T FIND A STATISTICAL BASIS FOR THE ORDINANCE. I'M MORE CONCERNED ABOUT GENTRIFICATION. 
          AND I'M MORE CONCERNED ABOUT ENFORCING THE RULES THAT ARE 
          ALREADY ON THE BOOKS. THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU, SIR. NEXT IS CHRIS 
          PRYOR. >> YEAH. GOOD EVENING, MR. CHAIRMAN AND MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE. MY NAME IS CHRIS PRYOR WITH THE MY BOARD REALTOR ASSOCIATION. AND I'M HERE TONIGHT TO SPEAK IN OPPOSITION OF THE PROPOSAL AS WE RECENTLY DID IN FISHERS AS WELL. JUST A FEW COMMENTS ON THIS. OUR MAIN OPPOSITION TO THIS IS THAT WE FEEL THAT THIS IS ONE. NOT NEEDED. TWO, A VIOLATION OF PRIVATE PROPERTY RIGHTS. BECAUSE YOU ARE TAKING AWAY A BASIC RIGHT OF PROPERTY OWNERS TO BE ABLE TO RENT THEIR PROPERTY AND THREE, INTERFEES WITH THE FREE MARKET BY INTERFERING WITH THE SUPPLY OF RENTAL PROPERTIES WHICH WILL DRIVE UP RENTS. BUT I WANT TO START OUT WITH SOME STATS AND I WON'T GET INTO ALL THE DETAILS OF WHAT I JUST SHARED WITH YOU. BUT A FEW THINGS THAT I THINK THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT. NUMBER ONE I KNOW THERE'S A REAL CONCERN ABOUT THE CRISIS OF WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH INSTITUTIONAL BUYERS BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF STORIES IN THE NEWS. AND THERE WAS A LOT OF ACTIVITY IN THE PAST WITH INSTITUTIONAL BUYERS AND IT'S SOMETHING WE'VE AS AN ORGANIZATION -- REALTOR ORGANIZATION, WE'VE MONITORED CLOSELY BECAUSE MANY OF THE MEMBERS HAVE HAD DEEP CONCERNS AS WELL ABOUT THE IMPACT THESE COULD HAVE. BUT TIMES HAVE CHANGED WITH BOTH INTEREST RATES, BUT ALSO MORE IMPORTANTLY, HOUSING PRICES. AND INSTITUTIONAL BUYERS ARE NOT -- NUMBER ONE, THEY'VE NEVER BEEN A BIG BUYER IN CARMEL BECAUSE THE PRICE POINTS NEVER WORKED FOR THEIR MODELS. SO THEIR BUYING WAS VERY LIMITED. NUMBER TWO, HOUSING PRICES HAVE RISEN SIGNIFICANTLY OVER THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS WHICH YOU CAN SEE IN SOME OF THE DATA THERE. WHICH HAS REALLY FURTHER DRIVEN THEM OUT OF THE MARKET. IN CARMEL, THERE ARE ONLY 72 HOMES THAT ARE OWNED BY WALL STREET INVESTORS. IN ALL OF CARMEL. OUT OF NEARLY 30,000 RESIDENTIAL PROPERTIES. IN THE LAST TWO YEARS, THERE HAVE BEEN ZERO PURCHASES BY INSTITUTIONAL INVESTORS. AGAIN, THAT'S BECAUSE THE MARKET CONDITIONS HAVE CHANGED AND HOUSING PRICES HAVE RISEN. SO I REALLY THINK THAT THIS IS KIND OF A -- GOING AFTER, PRESENTING A SOLUTION TO A PROBLEM THAT DOESN'T EXIST. A FEW OTHER THINGS SINCE I'M REALLY LIMITED ON TIME HERE. THIS -- I WAS A MEMBER OF THE HOUSING TASK FORCE. THIS ISSUE WAS NEVER BROUGHT UP BY ANY OF THE TOPICS PRESENTED IN THE TASK FORCE. THEY WERE NOT BROUGHT UP AT ANY OF THE PUBLIC COMMENT SO I FIND IT INTERESTING THAT WE'RE RUSHING TO DO THIS WHEN THAT WAS NOT A BIG DEAL. COUPLE OF LAST COMMENTS. I THINK THE CITY REALLY NEEDS TO DO SOME ADDITIONAL WORK IF YOU ARE GOING TO MOVE FORWARD WITH THIS. 
          THERE'S BEEN NO RESEARCH DONE TO FIND OUT WHAT THE PERCENTAGE OF RENTALS ARE IN NEIGHBORHOODS RIGHT NOW. THERE'S NO WAY TO 
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SAY IF THEY'RE AT THE CAP OR NOT. THE CITY DOESN'T HAVE THE SOFTWARE IN PLACE THAT THEY SAY THEY NEED TO DO THIS. AD THIS WILL CAUSE A HUGE INCREASE OF TIME IN OUR STAFF ADDRESSING THIS ISSUE WHEN THEY COULD BE BETTER SERVED WORKING ON OTHER 
          ISSUES. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. >> THANK YOU. NEXT JASON BIER. 
          JASON ? >> DID I GET IT? OKAY. ALL RIGHT. I ONLY PREPARED REMARKS AND STAND IN SUPPORT OF -- I'LL SPEAK TO THE ORDINANCE OF 2767-25. LIVING IN THE SAME NEIGHBORHOOD AS MR. LAWRENCE MCCORMACK. SO I STAND HERE IN SUPPORT OF LAWRENCE AND EVERYTHING THAT HE SHARED PREVIOUSLY AND I JUST WANT TO ADD KIND OF MY PERSONAL ANECDOTES AND EXPERIENCE HAVING LIVED IN CARMEL FOR THE LAST FIVE YEARS. SO WE MOVED HEARD FIVE YEARS AGO AND CAME TRUMP KENTUCKY AND THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT MOVE TODAY CARMEL. 
          WE WERE REALLY IMPRESSED WITH ITS OVERALL AMBIENCE AND SPECIFIC -- I HAVE THREE YOUNG CHILDREN. AND SO THAT WAS A BIG DETERMINING FACTOR WHERE WE MADE OUR NEXT MOVE. SO IT'S VERY FAMILY-ORIENTED. YOU COULD GO ON AND ON ABOUT CARMEL AND JUST THE WONDERFUL JOB IT DOES ACROSS THE BOARD. MY ONE COMPLAINT IS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD THAT I LIVE IN, AND THE NORTHEAST DISTRICT, THERE SEEMS TO BE A DISPROPORTIONATE AMOUNT OF RENTAL PROPERTIES COMPARED TO SOME OF THE OTHER NEIGHBORHOODS. 
          AND AGAIN, I'M NOT -- I'M NOT WANTING TO CAST BLAME ON THE RENTERS OR DISCRIMINATE BETWEEN SINGLE FAMILIES AND FAMILIES. OF COURSE ALL ARE WELCOME AND YOU KNOW, ADD TO THE DYNAMICS OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD. BUT WHAT I CAN SAY IS IN THE PAST FIVE YEARS SINCE I HAVE BEEN IN THIS NEIGHBORHOOD, THE DYNAMICS HAVE CHANGED AND I'LL JUST GIVE YOU ONE QUICK -- STORY. SO THERE'S A HOUSE IN FRONT OF US THAT RECENTLY SOLD. IT SOLD THREE YEARS AGO. AND SINCE THAT TIME, THERE HAVE BEEN THREE PEOPLE THAT HAVE MOVED IN AND OUT. AND AGAIN, NOTHING FOR THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN IN THAT HOME. BUT IT'S BEEN A LOT OF TURNOVER AND IT HAS CHANGED THE DYNAMICS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD AND THAT'S JUST ONE EXAMPLE. YOU GO AROUND THE NEIGHBORHOOD, THERE ARE OTHER EXAMPLES LIKE THAT. AND IT'S JUST -- IT'S JUST CHANGED OVERALL DYNAMICS TO THE POINT THAT MAKES ME QUESTION HOW LONG DO I WANT TO LIVE IN THIS NEIGHBORHOOD AND DO I WANT TO MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE LONG-TERM? AND THAT -- THERE WERE FAMILIES INTERESTED IN THAT HOME AND BECAUSE THERE WAS A CORPORATION I BELIEVE THAT, YOU KNOW, BOUGHT INTO THAT HOUSE, THEY WOULD TO LOOK ELSEWHERE AND THEY REALLY WANTED TO MOVE TO CARMEL AND THEY WERE NOT ABLE TO DO THAT. SO AGAIN, I STAND IN SUPPORT OF THIS BILL. ONE OTHER THOUGHT. JUST GIVE YOU SOME MORE INFORMATION. OR -- HOA RECENTLY SENT OUT AN EMAIL SAYING THAT THEY DID A DRIVE-BY IN OUR NEIGHBORHOOD AND THAT THINGS WERE TO THE POINT THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY WERE GOING TO DO ANOTHER DRIVE-BY JUST DUE TO PEOPLE NOT KEEPING UP WITH THEIR PROPERTY AND SO FORTH. SO GIVING YOU SOME MORE INFORMATION FOR KIND OF THE STATE OF THINGS, AT LEAST SPEAKING FOR OUR NEIGHBORHOOD. I DIDN'T HAVE ANY WHAT I HAVE FOR THIS EVENING. I THANK YOU COMMITTEE AND I APPRECIATE YOUR WORK. 
          >> THANK YOU SIR. DOESN'T LOOK LIKE WE HAVE ANY OTHER -- ANY OTHERS WHO SIGNED UP TO SPEAK. THANK YOU FOR EVERYONE WHO CAME TO SPEAK. WE'LL MOVE ON TO THE AGENDA. I WOULD LIKE TO NOTE 
          [c. Ordinance D-2771-25; An Ordinance of the Common Council of the City of Carmel,  Indiana, Authorizing the Issuance of Economic Development Tax Increment Revenue Bonds  to Support the North End Phase II Project, and Authorizing and Approving Other Actions in  Respect Thereto; Sponsor: Councilor Aasen.  ]
THAT WE ARE GOING TO MOVE ITEM C ORDINANCE D-2771-25 TO THE BEGINNING OF THE AGENDA. AND HENRY AND THOSE RELATED WITH THE NORTH END PROJECT, PLEASE COME TO THE PODIUM. 
          >> SORRY CHIEF. >> HEY, I'M USED TO EMERGENCIES. SO. 
          [00:20:07]
          >> REQUEST WAS INTRODUCED AND WE WE HAVE HERE JUST JUSTIN TO DISCUSS NORTH END AND ANSWER QUESTIONS AND I'LL BE HERE TO 
          ASSIST AS WELL. >> GOOD EVENING, JUSTIN MOVE FETE WITH OLD TOWN AND WE HAVE AVENUE DEVELOPMENT. OUR PARTNER ON THIS PROJECT. WE -- APPROACHED THE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT DIRECTOR NICK WEBBER A FEW MONTHS AGO ABOUT THE -- PROGRESSION OF THE NORTH END DEVELOPMENT AND ARE INTEREST IN MOVING FORWARD WITH PHASE TWO. AS I KNOW YOU ARE ALL AWARE, IT HAS BEEN A CHALLENGING WORLD IN THE CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY. 
          GRANTED I RECOGNIZE THE ECONOMIC CLIMATE FOR ALL HUMANS HAVE BEEN DIFFICULT THE LAST FIVE YEARS ESPECIALLY. WE -- OBVIOUSLY CAME OUT OF THE COVID ERA INTO ACCELERATED INTEREST RATE WORLD. 
          AND ESCALATION IN CONSTRUCTION COSTS LIKE WE HAVE NEVER SEEN BEFORE. AND THAT REALLY STALLED OUT OUR ABILITY TO PROGRESS WITH THIS MULTISTAGE DEVELOPMENT. WE LAUNCHED THE FIRST PHASE IN 2021. AND I THINK IT'S BEEN A PHENOMENAL SUCCESS AND ACHIEVING WHAT WE SET OUT TO ACCOMPLISH WITH THE DIFFERENT PARTS AND PIECES OF PHASE ONE WHICH INCLUDED APARTMENTS AND TOWNHOMES AND SOME RESTAURANTS AND COMMUNITY SPACES AND EVERYBODY -- THE COUNCIL IS NOW FAMILIAR WITH THE ATTAINABLE HOUSING INITIATIVE. THAT'S THE PIECE THAT WE'RE MOST PROUD OF. 
          AND I DON'T BELIEVE I COVERED THIS IN-DEPTH AT THE COUNCIL MEETING BUT WHAT'S BEEN REALLY UNIQUE ABOUT THE NORTH END STORY IS IT'S CROWD FUNDED LOCAL REAL ESTATE DEVELOPMENT. WE HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF WORKING WITH REALLY THOUSANDS NOW, BUT AT LEAST HUNDREDS OF CLIENTS IN DOWNTOWN CARMEL THAT HAVE BUILT HOMES WITH US AND WE'VE ESTABLISHED A LOT OF DEPTH OF RELATIONSHIP IN THE COMMUNITY. AND WHEN WE HAD THIS VISION FOR A MIXED USE PROJECT WITH AN ATTAINABLE HOUSING COMPONENT, WE KNEW THAT THE TRADITIONAL FINANCING MECHANISMS THAT EXIST WERE NOT GOING TO WORK. THE TYPICAL MODEL IN MULTIFAMILY HOUSING IS TO BUILD IT AND STABILIZE AND SELL IT WITHIN A FEW YEARS. AND WE FELT LIKE ESPECIALLY WITH THE ATTAINABLE COMPONENT, THAT THAT DIDN'T ALIGN WITH OUR INITIAL INTENT. SO WE CROWD FUNDED EQUITY FOR THE PROJECT THROUGH LARGELY DOWNTOWN CARMEL RESIDENTS WHO BELIEVED IN THE AREA. SO WE RAISED EQUITY SO THAT WE HAD A PERMANENTLY OWNED COMMUNITY ASSET. AND THERE WAS A RATE OF RETURN ASSIGNED TO THAT. BUT IT WAS VERY MINOR, FAR LESS THAN WHAT PEOPLE WOULD HAVE ACHIEVED IN THEIR INVESTMENTS. 
          AND IT WAS THE GOAL WAS THAT WE'D KEEP THIS AS A COMMUNITY -- ASSET AND PERPETUITY. WE HAVE CREATED A TRUST STRUCTURE UNDER NATIONAL CHRISTIAN FOUNDATION. THE PROJECT IS NOT SPECIFICALLY FAITH ATILLUATED BUT WE FOUND A LOT OF THE PEOPLE WHO INVESTED IN THE PROJECT INITIALLY HAD DONOR FUND SET UP THROUGH NCF AND FUNDS TO INVEST IN THE PROJECT. SO WE CREATED EFFECTIVELY LIKE A MICRONONPROFIT UNDER NCF AND NOW HAVE A TRUST BOARD OF COMMUNITY RESIDENTS THAT WILL HELP SHEPHERD THIS ASSET PERMANENTLY. SO REALLY UNIQUE STRUCTURE AND THE CITY OF CARMEL WAS GENEROUS TO PARTNER WITH US ON PHASE ONE OF THE DEVELOPMENT. WE USED TIF RESOURCES TO HELP PIE FOR SOME OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE FOR PHASE ONE AND HERE WE ARE AT PHASE TWO. WE HAVE -- WE'VE YOU KNOW, TAKEN US FIVE YEARS TO REALLY GET A DEVELOPMENT PLAN THAT'S ACTIONABLE. AND SOME WAYS I'M GRATEFUL FOR THE TIME IT'S FAKEN BECAUSE IT'S HELPED US TO ALLOW THE DEVELOPMENT TO MATURE AND SEE WHERE WE'VE BEEN SUCCESSFUL AND SEE WHERE WE NEED TO, YOU KNOW, MAYBE ADJUST THE PRODUCT TYPE. I'M GOING TO MOVE TO THIS IMAGE HERE. JUST TO GIVE SOME CONTEXT FOR THE REQUEST. WHEN WE WENT THROUGH THE INITIAL APPROVAL FOR THE PROJECT, BACK IN 2019, WE SHOWED SOME CONCEPT BUILDINGS FOR PHASE TWO. AND AT THE TIME, WE WERE PROPOSING THEM TO BE POTENTIALLY CONDOS AND POTENTIALLY SENIOR AND POTENTIALLY MARKET RATE MULTIFAMILY. BUT ALL OF IT WAS MID RISE DETACHED FOR RENT HOUSING. EXCEPT FOR IF WE SHOULD DO A CONDO BUILDING IT WAS FOR SALE. SO WE SHOWED THE -- UP TO A COUPLE HUNDRED, 250 PLUS MULTIFAMILY MARKET RATE UNITS THAT FIT ON THE PHASE 2 SITE. WE HAVE APPROXIMATELY EIGHT ACRES THAT'S DEVELOPABLE HERE IN THIS NORTHEAST CORNER OF THE SITE ADJACENT TO THE TRAIL. AND IF WE'RE DOING LIKE PROJECTS LIKE WE'VE DONE IN MIDTOWN, WE FIT A 200 UNIT PROJECT ON TWO ACRESSO YOU CAN IMAGINE WHAT'S POSSIBLE HERE. THE URBAN RESIDENTIAL 
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ZONING ALLOWS FOR US TO SEVEN STORIES AND 80% LOT COVERAGE. I SHARE THAT FACT TO ACKNOWLEDGE LIKE -- THIS GROUND WASN'T FREE. 
          WHEN WE AGGREGATED THIS LAND FOR THIS DEVELOPMENT, WE PAID, YOU KNOW, FAIRLY HEALTHY MARKET PREMIUMS FOR THE DIRT BASED ON THE UNDERLYING ZONING THAT ALLOWS YOU TO BUILD SEVEN STORIES AND 80% LOT COVERAGE. IN OUR VIEW WE KIND OF SAVED I WANT TO SAY BEST FOR LAST. KIND OF ONE OF THE MOST UNIQUE PIECES FOR LAST. BUT I THINK I WAS GOING TO SAY THE BEST BECAUSE IT HAS SOME UNIQUE VIEWS OF TREE LINES AND PARK SPACE AND THE TRAIL. SO CERTAINLY IT WAS DESIRABLE. OUR READ ON THE MARKET, IT IS THAT FOR NORTH END SPECIFICALLY, WE DON'T REALLY WANT HUNDREDS MORE MARKET RATE MULTIFAMILY UNITS FOR OUR PROGRAM MIX. WE HAVE 168 UNITS IN OUR PHASE 1, 40 OF WHICH ARE PERMANENTLY SET ASIDE AS ATTAINABLE FOR ADULTS WITH DISABILITIES. THAT LEAVES US WITH 128 MARKET RATE UNITS. THE PUNCH LINE IS, OUR -- ON EX IS NOT SUPPORTED IN PHASE 1 WITHOUT THE ADDITION OF AT LEAST ANOTHER 70 PLUS UNITS TO GET US TO 200 MARKET RATE UNITS SO THAT WE HAVE A SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT. 
          YOU WILL HEAR IN THE MULTIFAMILY INDUSTRY YOU NEED APPROXIMATELY 200, 250 TO BE -- HAVE A SUSTAINABLE PAYROLL FOR LEASING STAFF AND MAINTENANCE ET CETERA. SO WE'RE TRYING TO GET TO THE POINT WHERE WE HAVE BASELINE SUSTAINABILITY FOR THIS ASSET AND WE BELIEVE THAT'S 200. IN OUR VIEW WE ARE LEAVING QUITE A BIT OF DENSITY POSSIBILITY ON THE TABLE AND NOT PURSUING MORE MULTIFAMILY. SO THAT'S THE PRODUCT AND I'M GOING TO JUMP FORWARD HERE. THAT'S THE PRODUCT YOU SEE HERE. IT'S A TOWNHOME STYLE BUILDING BUT IT IS FOR RENT APARTMENT UNITS. 
          I'M ACTUALLY -- IMPRESSED WITH THE CREATIVITY OF OUR TEAM FROM THE FRONT FACADE TO THE TOPAIMAGE IT LIKES LIKE A TOWNHOME BUILDING. MAIN LEVEL, THE BASE IS IN EACH OF THOSE VERTICAL SLEEVES. YOU SEE THE GABLED ROOF LINE? THE MAIN LEVEL IS A ONE BEDROOM UNIT. AND THE UPPER TWO LEVELS ARE SINGULAR UNIT, THE SECOND LEVEL IS KIND OF KITCHEN DINING GREAT ROOM AND THE THIRD LEVEL IS TWO BEDROOMS SO WE HAVE MAIN LEVEL SINGLE BEDROOM UNIT AND UPPER TWO LEVELS IS TWO BEDROOM UNIT. OPEN OF THE VERTICAL SLEEVE ISTWO FOR RENT UNITS. WE HAVE 36 VERTICAL SLEEVES EQUALING 72 TOTAL UNITS. IT'S A CUSTOM MULTIFAMILY PRODUCT AND NEVER BEEN BUILT BEFORE THAT WE FOUND. WE FELT LIKE IT FIT THE SITE. UNIQUE TREE LINES SO WE HAD TO KIND OF HEM THIS SITE IN WITH THESE UNITS. AND WHAT'S REALLY UNIQUE IN OUR SITE PLAN THE LAYOUT GO BACK TO THE IMAGE HERE, THOSE UNITS KIND OF ARE JUST TO THE LEFT AND SOUTHWEST OF THE LARGER SENIOR LIVING BUILDING. THEY ALL KIND OF RUN THIS TREE LINE WHERE THERE'S A CREEK THAT RUNS THROUH THERE. SO WE THINK IT'S ALSO UNIQUE LIVING EXPERIENCE WHERE EVERY SINGLING UNIT HAS A VIEW OF TBACK TO THE GREEN SPACE. BUT MEETS OUR GOAL OF SUSTAINABILITY FOR THE PROJECT SO WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE THE STRATEGY OF USING OUR SAME LOCAL INVESTOR NETWORK SO THAT THIS ASSET WILL ALSO BE COMBINED WITH THE PHASE 1 AND HAVE MAJORITY OWNERSHIP BY THE COMMUNITY TRUST. THE OTHER COMPONENT IN THE DEVELOPMENT IS THE PRODUCT BY AVENUE DEVELOPMENT. I SHARED THIS WITH, YOU KNOW, THROUGHOUT THE PLANNING COMMISSION PROCESS AND COUNCIL PROCESS. BUT WE SOUGHT OUT A COMMUNITY MINDED DEVELOPMENT COMPANY AND FOUND THAT IN AVENUE. MR. MATTINGLY'S TEAM AND WE ARE LONG-TERM STAKEHOLDERS OF THE COMMUNITY. 
          AND WE MOVED AND BEWANTED TO SHOW OUR INTENTION TO THIS PROJECT BY MOVING THE OLD TOWN HEADQUARTERS TO THIS DEVELOPMENT AND WE'VE LOVED BEING A PART OF IT. BUT WE FOUND THAT THAT -- KIND OF NECESSARY TOO. WE -- ARE ACTIVELY ENGAGED IN THE SUPPORT NETWORK FOR THE ATTAINABLE HOUSING AND THE FOOD AND BEVERAGE INITIATIVES THERE. SO IT'S KIND OF A DEEP WORK FOR US AND WE HAVE A WHOLE TEAM OF EMPLOYEES THAT HELP FACILITATE ALL THE HAPPENINGS IN THE COMMUNITY. SO IT'S BEEN A BLESSING FOR EMPLOYEES TOO TO BE ABLE TO BE PART OF SOMETHING SPECIAL AND UNIQUE. AND SEE THE FRUITS OF THEIR LABOR GO TOWARDS COMMUNITY BENEFIT. SO REALLY EXCITED THAT OUR HEADQUARTERS ARE THERE BUT IT'S NOT SOMETHING WE CAN WALK AWAY FROM. 
          IT'S SOMETHING WE'RE EMBEDDED FOR LIKELY GENERATIONS AND SO WE WANTED TO FIND A DEVELOPMENT PARTNER THAT HAD SIMILAR VALUES AND THAT WANTED TO BUILD SOMETHING MEANINGFUL. SO KNOWING THE MARKET VERY WELL, I WOULD SAY WE HAVE AN EXPERTISE IN THE MARKET AND UNDERSTANDING WHAT HOUSING NEEDS ARE NECESSARY TO 
          [00:30:02]
SUPPORT A SUSTAINABLE CARMEL. SENIOR IS AN EVER GROWING MARKET. WE BELIEVE IT'S UNDERSERVED. AND SO WE RATHER THAN DO MORE MARKET RATE MULTIFAMILY IN PHASE 2 WE SOUGHT TO DO A SENOR LIVING DEVELOPMENT AND REALLY WANTED TO FIND THE RIGHT PARTNER. IT'S SURFACE LEVEL LOOKS LIKE A LUXURY APARTMENT COMMUNITY THAT'S AGE RESTRICTED AND I WOULD GLADLY SHARE MORE BUT ULTIMATELY THEY HAVE A UNIQUE CUSTOMIZED CONCIERGE MEDICINE PROGRAM REALLY FOCUSED ON, YOU KNOW, WELL-BEING FOR SENIORS. AND SO IT WAS OUR STUDY OF THEIR PRODUCT AND THEIR EXPERIENCE AND THEIR TEAM THAT LED US TO ENGAGE WITH THEM AND OFFER THEM THIS OPPORTUNITY. ONE OF THE BENEFITS TO US THOUGH BEYOND HAVING THE ABILITY TO COVER THE COST OF OUR LAND, THAT'S PRETTY MEANINGFUL. COST AND INFRASTRUCTURE. WE ALSO FOUND THAT THROUGH OUR ATTAINABLE HOUSING PROGRAM AND THE URBAN FARM PROGRAM, IT'S CREATED THIS -- FOSTERED THIS ENVIRONMENT OF VOLUNTEERISM. AND OUR TEAM, WHEN WE KIND OF PUT IT OUT THERE TO OUR INTERNAL TEAM AND SAID WHAT GROUP WOULD WE LIKE TO HAVE IN THIS DEVELOPMENT? THE HOPE WAS THAT WE WOULD HAVE MORE SENIORS THAT POTENTIALLY WOULD HAVE TIME TO ENGAGE WITH COMMUNITY THROUGH OUR VOLUNTEERING PROGRAM. AND SO MY INTERNAL TEAM WAS REALLY PUSHING HARD THAT WE APPROACH THIS AS A WAY TO FURTHER ACTIVATE THE NORTH END COMMUNITY AND KIND OF THE GREATER DOWNTOWN AREA. SO THAT'S REALLY KIND OF THE BACK STORY OF HOW WE LANDED HERE. THE -- REQUEST IF I WERE TO KIND OF BULLET POINT IT AND I WOULD ADD THAT AFTER WE APPROACHED ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT DIRECTOR MR. WEBBER AND MAYOR FINKUM, WE WENT THROUGH A PRETTY DETAILED PROCESS WITH A GENTLEMAN NAMED ADAM STONE. KYLE LOOKED AT SPREAD SHEETS WITH THE TEAM AND I THINK THEY DISCOVER THIS IS UNLIKE MOST ADDITIONAL ECONOMIC DEALS. THE RETURN IS PRETTY LIMITED. TO THAT EXTEND I WANT TO SAY THIS WHILE WE HAVE THE STUNT AND YOUR ATTENTION. WE COULDN'T STAY? BUSINESS IF WE DID THIS SORT OF PROJECT WITH EVERY PROJECT. WE WILL BRING OTHER PROJECTS TO THE ADMINISTRATION AND THIS COUNCIL IN THE COMING YEARS. THAT SHOW AN ACTUAL MARKET RATE RETURN ON OUR PROJECTS. AND WE NEED THIS SORT OF THING TO WORK TO BE ABLE TO ATTRACT INVESTMENT DOLLARS AND HAVE A SUSTAINABLE ENTERPRISE. SO AFTER THE AUDIT OF THE DEVELOPMENT, I THINK IT WAS VERY CLEAR THAT THERE IS A GAP. WE -- FOR THIS TO BE VIABLE TO EVEN YOU KNOW, GET CLOSE TO BEING ABLE TO FINANCE IT. WE WOULD NEED ADDITIONAL RESORTS BEYOND THE DOLLARS THAT WE'RE ABLE TO PUT INTO IT AND THAT'S SUBSEQUENTLY THE TIF REQUEST IN FRONT OF YOU. SO APPROXIMATELY $75 MILLION INVESTMENT. THERE'S 170 AGE RESTRICTED UNITS IN THE PROJECT. I EXPLAINED THE 72 TOWNHOME STYLE UNITS. AND THIS IS SOMETHING WE REALLY HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT YET. BUT OUR COMMITMENT TO FINDING MEANINGFUL SUSTAINABILITY IN EACH PROJECT WE'RE DOING, WE SAID WE WOULD COMMIT TO 10% OF THOSE BEING WORK FORCE PRICED. MODEST DISCOUNT BUT A DISCOUNT. WE WOULD JUST COMMIT TO. AND THE GOAL WOULD BE WE'D USE THE TIF RESOURCES FOR THE GENERAL INFRASTRUCTURE SITE DEVELOPMENT LARGELY FOR THE PROJECT. THE -- OBVIOUSLY THE TAX INCREMENT GENERATES PRETTY SIGNIFICANT COMPARED TO THE UNDERLYING VALUE BUT EQUATES TO APPROXIMATELY $4.7 MILLION BOND AMOUNT. SO THAT'S THE -- REQUEST IN FRONT OF YOU AND GLAD TO TAKE 
          QUESTIONS. THANK YOU. >> FIRST COMMITTEE, WOULD YOU LIKE THE HEAR FROM AVENUE OR GO STRAIGHT INTO ADDITIONAL 
          QUESTIONS? >> I'D RATHER HEAR FROM THE REST OF THE CONSULTING TEAM. AVENUE ON THEIR SENIOR LIVING 
          PROJECT. HOW MANY? >> GOOD AFTERNOON, MY NAME IS MIKE MATTINGLY. THE PRINCIPAL CO-FOUNDER OF AVENUE DEVELOPMENT. MY PARTNER LORI SCHULTZ AND I, WHEN WE STARTED AVENUE A DECADE AGO, WE MAINLY STAY IN THE HEALTH CARE SPACE AND A LOT OF SENIORS HOUSING AND A LOT OF MEDICAL OFFICE. AND WHEN WE -- LINKED UP WITH THE CLIENT OF OURS CALLED OAK STREET HEALTH. THEY WERE EVOLVING PRIMARY CARE MODEL AND ONE OF THE THINGS WE'VE NOTICED AS WE BUILT OUT SENIORS' HOUSING THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES, AND EVEN MORE RECENTLY HERE AT 
          [00:35:04]
HOME, WITH HANCOCK REGIONAL HEALTH AND GATEWAY PARK AND HOBS STATION. WE JUST OPENED A NEW PRODUCT THERE AS WELL. IS -- THE AFFORDABILITY AND ATTAINABILITY OF SENIORS' HOUSING AND KIND OF WHAT TRAJECTORY THAT'S ON. THERE'S CERTAINLY A NEED FOR IT. BUT THERE'S THIS -- THERE'S THIS GLOWING GAP IN THE MIDDLE BETWEEN INDEPENDENT LIVING AND MARKET RATE MULTIFAMILY FOR AGE RESTRICTED INDIVIDUALS. BOOMER HOUSING ESSENTIALLY. WE JUST OPENED UP ONE IN ST. PETER'S MISSOURI. 
          JUST TO HIGHLIGHT THAT A LITTLE BIT HERE. THAT'S 161 UNITS AND WE ARE 50% FILLED IN THE FIRST 90 DAYS. THE PRICE POINTS ON THESE ARE IMPORTANT TO JUSTIN'S POINTS ON THE REASON FOR THE NEED GLOBALLY ACROSS BOTH DEVELOPMENTS HERE IS WE ARE ESSENTIALLY IN LINE WITH MULTIFAMILY AND THE ATTAINABILITY AND THE AFFORDABILITY FOR OUR SENIORS IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT OF HOW WE LOOK AND UNDERWRITE THESE PROJECTS. THERE ARE VERY FEW PRODUCTS LIKE THIS IN THE UNITED STATES COMPARED TO MULTIFAMILY. THERE'S 110,000 UNITS COMPARED TO MILLIONS IN MULTI. AND IF YOU ARE A SENIOR, THE AVERAGE AGE RESIDENT OF OURS IS RIGHT NOW HOVERING AROUND 70. WE ACTUALLY HAVE I THINK 15 PEOPLE UNDER THE AGE OF 60 THAT LIVE IN OUR FACILITY IN ST. PETER'S. BUT IT'S THE SOCIALIZATION AND THAT AFFORDABILITY PIECE AND SO THEIR OPTIONS ARE TO STAY AT HOME, TWO-THIRDS OF OUR RESIDENTS ARE WIDOWED AND LIVING BY THEMSELVES. AND SO THEIR OPTIONS ARE TO STAY AT HOME. MOVE INTO A MARKET RATE MULTIFAMILY FACILITY OR MOVE INTO INDEPENDENT LIVING AND PRICE POINT ON INDEPENDENT LIVING IN THIS MARKET IS PROBABLY STARTING AT SOMEWHERE AROUND THE $3,000, $4,000 A MONTH RANGE. AND OURS IS ABOUT 50% OF THAT. SO THE NEED FOR SOMETHING LIKE THIS, IT JUST -- IT JUMPS OFF THE PAGE AT YOU TO BE HONEST WITH YOU. IT'S HARD TO CONDENSE INTO FIVE, TEN MINUTES HEREMENT WE'RE EXTREMELY EXCITED ABOUT JUST THE CONTINUITY OF THIS LOCATION. WHEN JUSTIN APPROACHED US AT LEAST A YEAR AGO TO LOOK AT THIS AND REALLY STUDY ON HOW WE COULD BECOME A CONTRIBUTING MEMBER TO THIS COMMUNITY, WE -- IT WAS. 
          THE -- WHAT THEY'VE BUILT HERE WILL BE THE SOCIAL ENGINE FOR HOW OUR RESIDENTS BASICALLY TO BE -- COMPLETELY HONEST, LIVE LONGER. THE RESIDENTS ON AVERAGE STAY EIGHT TO TEN YEARS IN THESE TYPES OF DEVELOPMENTS. AND ESSENTIALLY TAKE OVER THE COMMUNITY TO BE HONEST. T IS THEIR HOME. SO IF YOU THINK IN TERMS OF CHAPTERS OF LIFE, THE AVERAGE MULTIFAMILY RESIDENT IS 18, 24 MONTHS PERHAPS. SO EIGHT TO TEN YEARS IS OBVIOUSLY QUITE A BIT LONGER WHICH MAKES A LOT MORE SENSE. THEIR CHAPTERS FOR THE BOOMERS ARE DIFFERENT. AND SO WE'RE JUST EXTREMELY EXCITED TO BE A PART OF THIS. AND I TOLD JUSTIN THAT I COULD ALMOST BET THAT HALF OF OUR ENTIRE BUILDING WILL PROBABLY TAKE OVER THE GARDEN ON A VOLUNTARY BASIS. I THINK WE HAND SHOOK ON THAT. SO WE'RE -- WE'RE HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS THAT YOU HAVE. BUT EXCITED TO BE HERE AND TALK ABOUT THIS PROJECT. 
          >> QUESTIONS? >> YEAH. 
          >> YES, MA'AM. YES. >> WELL, IT'S NICE TO SEE YOU AGAIN. IT'S BEEN A WHILE. I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT LOOKING AT THIS PROJECT AND SEEING THE MULTIGENERATIONAL COMPONENT WITH THE FIRST PHASE AND THE SECOND PHASE IS SO INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT. PRICE POINT IS ALWAYS SOMETHING THAT'S A BIG CONCERN FOR ME. SO I DO APPRECIATE THAT AS WELL. I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO SEEING WHAT TRANSPIRES. SO THANK YOU SO MUCH. I KNOW DR. JOSHI FEELS THE SAME WAY ABOUT THE MULTIGENERATIONAL COMMUNITY. 
          >> THANK YOU. >> IF I COULD ADD -- AFTER WE HAD THE ANNOUNCEMENT ABOUT THE PROJECT AND THERE WAS OBVIOUSLY SOCIAL MEDIA AND I'M TRYING NOT TO PAY ATTENTION TO MOST OF THAT. BUT -- BECAUSE WE -- LIVE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD WITH MY FAMILY. AND KNOW QUITE A FEW OF THE NEIGHBORS AND SEVERAL STARTED REACHING OUT TO ME. QUITE A FEW TOWNHOME COMMUNITIES AROUND DOWNTOWN CARMEL. THREE STORY. I DON'T HAVE STATS ON THIS BUT WHAT I EXPERIENCE IS A LOT OF ANY NEIGHBOR -- MY NEIGHBORS ARE OVER 55 AND THEY LIKE THE WALKABILITY BUT DON'T 
          [00:40:01]
PREFER THE STAIRS. THEY'RE ALL ABOUT HIS PROJECT WHICH THEY WERE ASKING ABOUT HOW THEY COULD STAY IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD BUT BE PART OF THAT DEVELOPMENT BECAUSE THEY -- LOVE THE NEIGHBORHOOD. 
          THEY DON'T LOVE THE STAIRS AND POINT AND THE DENSITY OF OUR DOWNTOWN, MOST LIVING ANYMORE IS VERTICAL OR IT'S MARKET RATE APARTMENTS OR COMPLETELY UNAFFORDABLE. SO -- I THINK THIS -- REALLY SOLVES A NEED FOR A LOT OF MY EXISTING NEIGHBORS. 
          >> DR. JOSHI? >> OBVIOUSLY YES I THINK YOU LIVE LONGER IF YOU ARE ENBEIGED IN VOLUNTEERSM AND WORKING WITH THE COMMUNITY AND MULTIGENERATIONAL LIVING IS THE HEALTHIEST WAY TO DO THAT. THE PRICE POINT THAT YOU MENTIONED WAS THAT $1,500 TO $3,000 A MONTH? I WASN'T SURE WHAT IT 
          WAS. >> IT WAS $1,500 TO -- WELL, THE INDEPENDENT LIVING AND I ACTUALLY HAVE DONE SOME PROJECTS IN THIS SPACE TOO. AND IN DOWNTOWN CARMEL AREA. ANYTHING THAT WOULD BE OR CARMEL IN GENERAL, IN THE SENIOR SPACE THAT'S INDEPENDENT LIVING OR MEMORY CARE, THERE'S REALLY NOTHING THAT'S IN THE -- SUB $3,500 A MONTH. BUT WITH ANY SORT OF MEAL PLAN THAT SORT OF THING, YOU ARE WELL OVER TO $4,000 TO $6,000 FOR CARMEL PRODUCT. SO -- THE GOAL FOR THE PROJECT IS THAT IT WOULD BE ON PAR WITH MULTIFAMILY. TYPICALLY JUST A SLIGHT PREMIUM UP TO 10% IS THE GOAL. BUT THAT'S BECAUSE IT HAS QUITE A FEW SERVICES YOU WOULDN'T GET IN MULTIFAMILY. 
          THAT'S APPROXIMATELY HALF OF WHAT THE COST OF, YOU KNOW, INDEPENDENT LIVING-TYPE FACILITIES ARE. BUT WITH THE CONCIERGE'S MEDICINE IT'S INDIVIDUALIZED AND EVERYBODY THAT RENTS THERE IS NOT PAYING FOR THOSE SERVICES, IT'S AT NEED AND KEEPS THE OVERALL COSTS LOW. 
          >> SO THE CONCIERGE MEDICINE IS IN ADDITION OBVIOUSLY. THAT'S A PERSONAL -- WHAT YOU WOULD CHOOSE TO DO. 
          >> YEAH. WE DEFINITELY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH TIME FOR THAT. 
          ESSENTIALLY BACK TO THE VALUE BASED MODEL. ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE FOR YOURSELF AND HAVING YOUR OWN -- YOU KNOW, PERSONAL NAVIGATOR IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST CHALLENGES IN THE -- IN BOOMER GENERATION BY FAR. NAVIGATING THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IS UNBELIEVABLY COMPLEX. AND OBVIOUSLY THE. 
          >> WELL AWARE. >> OBVIOUSLY VERY -- SO WE HAVE -- WE STARTED OUR OWN HEALTH CARE COMPANY. MSO. IN ORDER TO OFFER UP VIRTUAL SERVICES INITIALLY. AND THEN EVOLVING NTO A FULL-TIME EMPLOYEE THAT  WOULD ACTUALLY BE ON SITE TO HELP SERVE THE RESIDENTS AND NAVIGATE THEIR HEALTH CARE AND THEY GO BEYOND THAT. WE DO DIETARY, YOU KNOW, TEACHINGS AND 
          ALL SORTS OF THINGS LIKE THAT. >> SO IT'S PROVIDING -- 
          >> AMEN TO US. >> IT'S PROVIDING CLASSES AND 
          YOU ENVISION THIS AS -- >> YEP. AND THE -- AND LAST YEAR, MEDICARE ACTUALLY EXPANDED TO ALLOW FOR THE BILLING TO GO THROUGH SO IF YOU HAD MEDICARE, SO IT'S NO ADDITIONAL COST TO THE RESIDENT AT OUR FACILITIES. AND ADDITIONAL AMENITY. BUT NOT ADDITIONAL COST. THE COST ACTUALLY GETS BILLED DIRECT TO MEDICARE AND THE CARE NAVIGATORS ACTUALLY GET COMPENSATED FOR IT. 
          >> THANK YOU. >> YEAH. 
          >> THEN I JUST -- GO AHEAD, JEFF. COUNCILLOR. 
          >> YOU CAN GO. >> ALL RIGHT. I'LL MAKE MY COMMENTS BRIEF. I JUST WANTED TO CONGRATULATE JUSTIN, CONGRATULATE YOU FOR PULLING ALL THE COMPONENTS OF THIS PROJECT TOGETHER BACK FROM WHEN THIS ALL FIRST STARTED TRYING TO DESIGN AROUND ABOUT THERE AT THAT WEST END. SO -- EVERY COMPONENT IS THOUGHTFUL, UNIQUE, FROM THE, YOU KNOW, THE WORK THAT'S BEING DONE WITH THE THINGS THAT ALREADY EXIST. BUT THE -- THE HOUSING THAT YOU ARE PROVIDING FOR SENIORS AND THAT AREA THAT'S MISSING IS JUST OVER THE TOP AND IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO US RIGHT NOW AS YOU HAVE BEEN HEARING THROUGH THE, YOU KNOW, THE HOUSING TASK FORCE AND ELECTIONS AND EVERYTHING TRYING TO OFFER MORE OPPORTUNITIES FOR OUR SENIORS TO REMAIN IN CARMEL AND AGE RESPECTFULLY IN CARMEL. THIS IS JUST FABULOUS. SO I JUST -- I WANT TO ENCOURAGE IT AND I SUPPORT THIS AND I HAVE SUPPORTED IT FROM DAY ONE. I HAVE NO QUESTIONS AND I HAVE NO -- NO CRITICISM AND I HAVE NO CHANGES AND I DON'T WANT TO MODIFY IT. I JUST WANT TO GET IT GOING. SO THANK YOU VERY MUCH 
          FOR ALL OF YOUR WORK ON THIS. >> THANK YOU, SIR. I WOULD ADD I THINK I SHARED THIS AND FORGIVE ME, I HAVE BEEN -- I FORGOT WHICH GROUP. BUT WE DO HAVE A LOT OF CONVERSATIONS THROUGH OUR HOME BUILDING BUSINESS AND OTHER REAL ESTATE INVESTORS WITH 
          [00:45:01]
CARMEL RESIDENTS. WHAT WE HEAR OVER AND OVER IS I WANT TO MOVE OUT OF MY EXISTING HOME IN CARMEL. BUT I HAVE NOWHERE TO GO. SO -- I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN THE HOUSING TASK FORCE AND A LOT OF THESE INITIATIVES STUDYING WHAT ARE MISSING COMPONENTS ARE AND THIS IS IT, COUNCILLOR ROYAL. WE ARE SPECIFICALLY LOOKING EAST OF KEYSTONE. OCCUPIED BY OVER 65-YEAR-OLD HOUSE HOLDS THAT ARE THERE NOT BECAUSE THEY PREFER THEIR HOME THEY'RE IN. THEY JUST DON'T HAVE THE ALTERNATIVE. NOT A ONE SIZE FITS ALL BUT ANOTHER OPTION WHERE PEOPLE COULD MOVE AND STAY IN CARMEL AND HAVE ACCESS TO AMENITIES AND THEN FREE UP ADDITIONAL HOUSING FOR THE NEXT 
          GENERATION. >> I JUST WANTED TO POINT OUT A FEW THINGS JUST TO GET ON THE RECORD. ONE IMPORTAT ITEM AND THAT IS THAT THIS IS A DEVELPER BACKED TIF BOND AND IF HE GOES THE NERD I AM TO THE TRUST INDENTURE RELATED TO THE BOND ISSUE, AND I LOVE HOW OUR BOND COUNCIL ALWAYS DOES THIS ON PAGE 6. THE SERIES BONDS AND THE INSTRUMENTS PAYABLE THEREON DO NOT AND SHALL NOT REPRESENT OUR CONSTITUTED DEBT OF THE ISSUER WITHIN THE MEANING OF THE PROJETIONS OF THE -- CONSTITUTION OR STATUTES OF THE STATE OF INDIANA OR PLEDGE OF FAITH OR IN CREDIT OF THE LIABILITY OF THE STATE OF INDIANA OR ANY POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OR TAXING AUTHORITY THEREOF. THAT MEANS THIS CITY OF CARMEL. SO -- IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT THE CITY OF CARMEL TAXPAYERS NOT ON THE HOOK FOR THIS BOND INDENTURE. IT'S SOLELY THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE DEVELOPER TO REPAY. AND I WANT TO JUST MAKE SURE TO GET THAT ON THE RECORD. THE OTHER ITEM AND JEFF REALLY HIT ON THIS. BUT YOU KNOW, WE'RE -- WE'RE GOING TO BE CONDUCTING A COMMUNITY WIDE ASSESSMENT IN PARTNERSHIP WITH AARP TO MOVE -- MOVE TO TRY TO CREATE OPPORTUNITIES FOR SENIORS. AND WE ALREADY KNOW WITHOUT THIS ASSESSMENT THAT SENIOR HOUSING IS A HUGE NEED IN OUR COMMUNITY. IT WILL HELP OUR REALTOR FRIENDS BE ABLE TO MARKET HOMES THAT THEY'RE LIVING IN TO THEN -- BUT ALSO MOST IMPORTANTLY, KEEP THEM IN OUR COMMUNITY. THESE PEOPLE HAVE INVESTED MANY OF THEM HAVE INVESTED THEIR -- ENTIRE LIVES IN THIS COMMUNITY. AND WE WANT TO ENSURE THAT THEY'RE ABLE TO STAY HERE. SO KUDOS TO THIS PROJECT. I CAN'T BE HAPPIER WITH THE PROJECT. WHAT'S ALSO IMPORTANT IS I THINK FROM THE FINANCE NERD SIDE OF ME, IS THAT SO -- HENRY MENTIONED ADAM STONE. HE IS A LICENSED MY MUNICIPAL ADVISOR. AND I WANT TO GIVE KUDOS TO JUSTIN. SO JUSTIN AND HIS TEAM LITERALLY OPENED UP THEIR FINANCIALS. WENT THROUGH IT LINE BY LINE WITH THEIR ADVISOR AND HENRY'S TEAM AND NICK. AND YOU KNOW, I WAS ABLE TO, YOU KNOW, I HAVE A -- LITTLE BIT OF KNOWLEDGE ABOUT HOW THESE PERFORMERS WORK. AND, YOU KNOW, TO THE THINGS THAT YOU STATED ON RECORD. THIS IS REALLY A MIX -- MISSION DRIVEN DEVELOPMENT IS 100% ACCURATE. SO I -- FULLY SUPPORT THIS TIF BOND ISSUE AND LOOK FORWARD TOO SEENG THIS PROJECT BECOME A REALITY AND THANK YOU TO RICK FOR BRINGING IT TO THE CITY OF CARMEL. 
          >> MR. CHAIR. WOULD YOU ENTERTAIN A MOTION? 
          >> YES, SIR. >> I WOULD MOVE THAT WE SEND THIS BACK TO FULL COUNCIL WITH POSITIVE RECOMMENDATION. 
          >> DO I HAVE A SECOND? >> SECOND. 
          >> TONY IS ABLE TO VOTE SO WE WILL DO A ROLL CALL VOTE FROM THE COMMITTEE. JESSICA? 
          >> THANKS, THERE'S A SEVEN TO TEN SECOND DELAY. JUSTIN FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, I THINK I WAS CLEARLY AGAINST YOUR PROJECT. YOU KNOW, BUT WHAT YOU HAVE DONE IS A GREAT JOB OF TAKING A LOT OF INFORMATION AND A LOT OF DATA AND GIVING A PRODUCT THAT HELPS MANY DIFFERENT SEGMENTS IN CARMEL. SO 
          I VOTE YAY. >> THANK YOU. 
          >> THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. >> THANK YOU. MOTION PASSING 
          UNANIMOUSLY. THANK YOU. >>> NEXT WE'LL MOVE ON TO 
          [a. Ordinance D-2767-25; An Ordinance of the Common Council of the City of Carmel,  Indiana, Amending Chapter 2, Article 4, Section 2-96 of the Carmel City Code; Sponsor(s):  Councilor(s) Taylor and Snyder. ]
ORDINANCE D-2767-25. CHIEF? THIS IS AN AMENDMENT TO THE ORDINANCE REGULATING THE AMBULANCE CAPITAL FUND. 
          >> GOOD EVENING. JOEL, FIRE CHIEF CITY OF CARMEL. PULL THIS 
          [00:50:01]
BACK UP HERE. WE'VE DONE -- SINCE WE LAST MET, WE'VE DONE -- SIGNIFICANT WORK ON THE AMENDMENT AND WHICH IS WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO GO THROUGH. THIS EVENING. AND I THINK WE'LL CONTINUE TO TALK ABOUT RATES, YOU KNOW, OVER COMING MONTHS. 
          AND REALLY AS WE WORK KIND OF THROUGH THE BUDGET PROCESS. I WANT TO THANK BENJAMIN LEG AND ANDREW YOUNG FOR THEIR WORK ON THIS AS WELL. I DON'T THINK WE'VE LOOKED AT THIS ORDINANCE IN WHITE -- QUITE A WHILE. THERE WE GO, JUST KIND OF WALK THROUGH AND CLEANING UP SOME LANGUAGE. AND ADDING IN SOME ADDITIONAL LANGUAGE. FIRST THING THAT WE RESEARCHED WAS THE HAMILTON COUNTY EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES TAX, WHAT WE HAVE FOUND IS THAT HAS NOT BEEN AROUND FOR A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF TIME. 
          NO ONE REALLY -- KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. OR COULD FIND MUCH INFORMATION ABOUT IT. WE BELIEVE IT WAS A -- ORIGINALLY FORMED TO HELP WITH SOME REIMBURSEMENT FOR MEDICAL TRAINING BUT NOT AROUND ANYMORE. SO REALLY JUST STRIKING THAT FROM THE ORDINANCE. AND CLEANING UP SOME OTHER LANGUAGE AND REFERRING TO THE FUND AS THE PARAMEDIC EMERGENCY AMBULANCE AND FIRE SERVICE CAPITAL FUND. 
          SO WE KNOW WHAT EXACTLY IS THIS FUND? IT'S PRETTY CLEAR MOVING FORWARD WHAT THE MONEY IS TO BE USED FOR. AGAIN, THIS WAS A -- SET UP JOINTLY BETWEEN CITY AND CLAY TOWNSHIP. STRIKING LANGUAGE WHERE CLAY TOWNSHIP IS INVOLVED AND CAPITAL EQUIPMENT AND PURCHASED MOVING FORWARD SHALL BE TITLED IN THE NAME OF THE CITY AND THEN THE LARGE CHUNK THAT'S STRUCK HERE IS IF CITY TERMINATES THE AMBULANCE SERVICE, THEN ANY ADDITIONAL FUNDS IN THERE WOULD GO BACK JOINTLY. WHATEVER AGREED TO BETWEEN THE CITY AND THE TOWNSHIP. SO WE WOULD STRIKE THAT LANGUAGE. IN THE 2024 GENERAL ASSEMBLY, SO NEW LEGISLATION PUT IN PLACE TO WHERE NONPARTICIPATING AMBULANCE SERVICE PROVIDER WHICH IS WHAT CITY OF CARMEL, CARMEL FIRE DEPARTMENT IS, COULD ESTABLISH A RATE AT 400% OF THE CURRENT PUBLISHED CMS RATES. AND THAT COMMERCIAL INSURANCE PAYERS SHALL PAY THAT RATE. AND SO LOOKING AT OUR ORDINANCE, AND STRIKING SOME OF THE LANGUAGE THAT IS IN THE ORDINANCE, WE HAD SET THE RATES IN THERE BUT REALLY AT A RATE NOT TO EXCEED 400% OF CMS FOR THE COMMERCIAL PAYOR INSURANCE. AS WELL AS TO LIMIT THE OUT OF POCKET EXPENSES FOR CARMEL RESIDENTS TO $800. 
          SO? WHATEVER THAT GAP MAY BE AS WE LAND ON RATES, NOT TO EXCEED -- PUT SOME PROTECTIONS IN THERE FOR CARMEL RESIDENTS. AND THEN THE LAST PARAGRAPH THERE IS TO ALLOW THE FIRE CHIEF TO ADJUST, SHOULD CHANGES IN MEDICARE OR OTHER FEDERAL STATE HEALTH CARE REGULATIONS CHANGE IT ALLOWS THE FIRE CHIEF THE AUTHORIZATION TO MAKE CHANGES THAT ARE COMPLIANT WITH THE LAW. THE COLA INCREASE, AGAIN WE COULD DISCUSS HERE WHERE WE WANT TO SEE THAT. 
          LOOKING AT A 3% COST OF LIVING ADJUSTMENT TO THE LIMITS ON OUT OF POCKET EXPENSES. YOU KNOW, WE COULD -- LOOK AT LIMITING TO OUT OF POCKET OR TO THE RATE DEPENDING ON, YOU KNOW, AS WE 
          [00:55:03]
CONTINUE TO WORK WITH THE MAYOR AND THE COUNCIL ON THIS. I THINK THE BIGGEST POINT IN THE -- IN THE CHANGE HERE AND AGAIN, APPRECIATE BENJAMIN AND ANDREW DOING RESEARCH, YOU KNOW, WE RESPOND, YOU KNOW, EIGHT TO TEN TIMES A MONTH ON LIFT ASSIST TO EXTENDED CARE FACILITIES. AND WHEN WE ARRIVE ON SCENE, THERE'S TWO, THREE, FOUR TRAINED STAFF STANDING AROUND THE PATIENT BUT FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO PICK THE PATIENT BACK UP AND PUT THEM BACK. SO THEY CALL 911 AND WE SEND A UNIT OUT THERE TO PUT THE PERSON BACK IN A CHAIR AND BACK IN THEIR BED. WE DO CLEAR THEM TO ENSURE THAT THERE ARE NO MEDICAL ISSUES. VAST MAJORITY OF TIME THERE ARE NONE. 
          THEY SIMPLY FELL DOWN. AND NEED HELP BACK UP. BUT FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER, THE FACILITY CAN'T PUT THEM BACK IN A CHAIR. SO WHAT WE WOULD LIKE TO DO IS INSTITUTE A FEE OF $500 EVERY TIME WE GO OUT TO THESE FACILITIES ONLY. NOT PRIVATE RESIDENCES. BUT IN PLACES THAT HAVE TRAINED PERSONNEL ON SITE THAT SHOULD NORMALLY BE ABLE TO CARRY OUT THIS CARE. WE'RE TRYING TO DELIVER THAT. JUST FOR INSTANCE, LIFT ASSIST THE FIRST QUARTER OF 2025, WE'RE AT 30. YOU KNOW, THAT'S $15,000 A QUARTER. WE'RE $60,000 A YEAR. THAT'S -- BASED ON, YOU KNOW, JUST SOME NUMBERS HERE IN 2025. BUT WE'RE SEEING AN INCREASED NUMBER OF THAT. NOW I DON'T KNOW THAT WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE TO THESE THAT SILT -- FACILITIES OR NOT. WE'LL CONTINUE THE PAY THAT. $3,500. THAT'S GREAT. OR IF THAT -- IF THAT WILL CHARGE THEM TO LOOK AT THEIR PROCESSES. BUT WE'RE SEEING MORE AND MORE COMMUNITIES START TO HAVE THESE DISCUSSIONS AND TRY TO INSTITUTE A FEE LIKE THIS. I THINK IT'S VERY FAIR TO REIMBURSE OUR SERVICES FOR GOING OUT AND PROVIDING SOME LEVEL OF CARE THAT THEY SHOULD BE PROVIDING. THAT'S ALREADY COVERED PROBABLY IN THEIR MONTHLY EXPENSES. ALREADY. AND THEN JUST SOME ADDITIONAL CLEAN-UP. CHANGING CITY ATTORNEY. CORPORATION COUNCIL. AND SOME OTHER CLEAN-UP ITEMS THERE. BUT HAPPY TO TAKE ANY QUESTIONS AND HAPPY TO REVIEW ANY MATERIAL AND I KNOW I WAS LOOKING OVER SOME NOTES TO DOS FROM -- OUR PREVIOUS DISCUSSIONS. I THINK THERE WAS A QUESTION ON THE BREAKDOWN OF OUR PAYOR CLASS HERE IN CARMEL. SO THAT'S -- OUR EMS PAYOR BREAKDOWN IS 55% MEDICARE. WHICH KIND OF ALIGNS WITH THE DISCUSSION THAT YOU JUST HAD ON, YOU KNOW, RESIDENCES FOR INDIVIDUALS A LITTLE OLDER THERE. 10% MEDICAID. 30% COMMERCIAL PAYOR AND 5% PRIVATE. SO AGAIN, MAKING SOME ADJUSTMENTS TO THAT COMMERCIAL PAYOR RATE, WOULD IMPACT 30% OF OUR BILLING. WHICH DOING SOME ROUGH CALCULATIONS AND THERE ARE A LOT OF ESTIMATIONS IN THERE, YOU KNOW, WE COULD SEE SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN REVENUE FROM THAT. OUR MEDICARE, MEDICAID RATES, YOU KNOW, YOU COULD CHARGE WHATEVER YOU WANTED. BUT YOU ARE NOT GOING TO RECEIVE ANY MORE THAN WHAT THAT ANNUAL RATE IS SET. SO THOSE ARE PRETTY MUCH SET. AND THE STATE OF INDIANA DOES ALLOW US TO BILL MEDICAID RATES AND RECEIVE MEDICARE REIMBURSEMENT. SO WE'RE KIND OF LOOKING AT, YOU KNOW, 65% OF OUR MIX THERE IF WE'RE ADDING THAT 10% INTO MEDICARE REIMBURSEMENT IF THAT MAKES SENSE. CONTINUE TO LOOK AT OUR RATES AND DISCUSS WHAT WE, YOU KNOW, BETWEEN THE MAYOR AND THE COUNCIL, WHAT WE THINK YOU KNOW, WOULD BE THE RIGHT THING TO DO THERE. BUT AS FAR AS LOOKING AT THE ORDINANCE ITSELF IN THE LANGUAGE CHANGES; HAPPY TO ENTERTAIN ANY QUESTIONS. 
          >> BEFORE I OPEN UP AND QUESTIONS, I WANTED TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE STRATEGY THAT THE CHIEF AND I DISCUSSED. 
          SO THE ORDINANCE BASICALLY REFLECTS THE AMOUNT THAT IS ALLOWED TO BE CHARGED UNDER INDIANA STATE LAW. AND INSTEAD OF SETTING RATES ACTUALLY THROUGH THIS ORDINANCE AND NOW, WE WANT TO TIE THE RATES TO THE BUDGETING PROCESS. AND SO -- THE RATES THAT CHIEF THACKER THEN WILL PRESENT LATER WILL BE BASED -- THE RATIONALE WILL BE BASED ON THE BUDGETING PROCESS AND 
          [01:00:01]
ALSO, YOU KNOW,, THE COMPARISON WHICH YOU PRESENTED LAST MEETING WHICH WE ALL HAD ACCESS TO OF OUR OTHER DEPARTMENT EMS RATES THROUGH THE STATE OF INDIANA. WE WERE IN THE BOTTOM WAR TILE FOR AND THE TALK ABOUT THAT STRATEGY WHY WE'RE NOT SPECIFICALLY DISCUSSING RATES TONIGHT IN HIS PRESENTATION. 
          >> YEAH. JUST YOU KNOW, SO THERE WERE 16 DEPARTMENTS LISTED IN THAT LAST TIME. AND WE WERE 15 OUT OF 16TH. SO LOWEST ON FROM OUR CURRENT RATES, FROM 16 DIFFERENT AGENCIES AND WE'RE REACHING OUT TO THEM AS KIND OF EVERYONE IS LOOKING AT SOME RATE ADJUSTMENTS. SO WE'LL BE ABLE TO GET SOME MORE INFORMATION FROM ALL OF OUR NEIGHBORS. AND TO SEE KIND OF WHERE WE FIT IN 
          MOVING FORWARD. >> COUNCILMEMBER WELLS? 
          >> THANK YOU. SO OKAY. IT'S OKAY TO TALK ABOUT THE LIFT FEE OR WHATEVER WE'RE CALLING THAT. OKAY. SO CHIEF, THANK YOU FOR YOUR WORK ON THIS. I'M GLAD YOU ARE BRINGING THIS UP AND LOOKING AT IT. ON THE LIFT ASSIST, SO DID I JUST UNDERSTAND COUNCILLOR TAYLOR SAYING IN YOU ARE LIMITED WHAT YOU CAN CHALLENGE FOR THAT -- CHARGE FOR THAT THING OR IS THAT SOMETHING ELSE. 
          >> WE GO OUT THERE -- >> NO, I MEAN YOUR SUGGESTION OF $500. IS THAT -- BY STATE STATUTE? 
          >> NO. >> OKAY. ALL RIGHT. SO WHAT IS -- SO WHEN YOU GO TO ONE OF THOSE CALLS, WHAT DO WE SEND? IS IT AN AMBULANCE OR AN ENGINE? CAN WE GIVE ME SOME CONTEXT 
          THERE? >> IT COULD BE A PUMPER TRUCK AND COULD BE A LADDER TRUCK AND COULD BE -- WE'RE TYPICALLY SENDING MORE, YOU KNOW, THE AMBULANCE HAS TO OBVIOUSLY WE'RE SENDING, YOU KNOW, INTERNAL LADDER DEPENDING ON THE SIZE OF THE PERSON. SO WE HAVE PROPER PERSONNEL AND WE'RE NOT CREATING A SAFETY ISSUE. SO YEAH, WE'RE SENDING OUR BIGGEST RIGS OUT THERE TO TAKE CARE OF THIS. 
          >> THERE WAS AN AMBULANCE, WHY DID THE FIRE TRUCK COME TOO? SO I KNEW SOMETHING LIKE THAT WAS GOING ON. BUT WOULD IT BE FAIR TO SAY THERE'S GENERALLY SIX PERSONNEL, YOU KNOW,. 
          >> MINIMUM OF FOUR. >> MINIMUM OF FOUR: OKAY. 
          THANKS. AND DO WE KNOW WHAT THE COST IS TO PROVIDE THAT KIND OF 
          A SERVICE? >> PER HOUR? BREAKDOWN NO. I 
          HAVE NOT -- DONE THAT. >> OKAY. SO -- ALL RIGHT. SO THEN HOW DID WE COME UP WITH $500? JUST CURIOUS. 
          >> LOOKING AT SOME OTHER COMMUNITIES, AND SOME OF THE RATES THAT WERE ESTABLISHED THERE. AND KIND OF -- AGAIN, WHAT WOULD BE -- SOMETHING I THINK IS FAIR WITHOUT BEING, YOU KNOW, OVER THE TOP, AND CHARGING THAT. FOR THEIR 15, 20 MINUTES, WHAT WOULD BE AN AMOUNT THAT WOULD MAKE SENSE FOR US TO 
          CHARGE THEM. >> DID I UNDERSTAND YOU THOUGH? ISN'T OUR GOAL TO GET THE FACILITY TO NOT WANT THE PAY -- 
          TO PAY THAT FEE? >> IT WOULD BE MAYBE THEY THINK -- MAYBE WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT OUR OPERATIONS AND INSTEAD OF CALLING 911 FOR THIS SERVICE, FIGURING OUT SOME WAY TO BE ABLE TO DO THIS IN-HOUSE WITHOUT BRINGING ADDITIONAL FOLKS. 
          >> OKAY. ALL RIGHT. OKAY. THANK YOU. 
          >> HEIM ASSUMING ALSO THEY DON'T WANT TO ASSUME THE LIABILITY OF THEIR EMPLOYEES LIFTING PEOPLE OFF AND THEY'RE PUSHING OFF THAT RESPONSIBILITY TO OUR MEN AND WOMEN OF THE FIRE DEPARTMENT. WHAT -- CAN YOU GO BACK TO -- SORRY. CAN YOU GO BACK TO WHERE THEY ACTUALLY TALK ABOUT THE RATE FOR EMS? 
          >> THAT'S ONE THAT'S PURSUANT TO INDIANA CODE. THAT GIVES THE CHIEF FLEXIBILITY TO CHARGE UP TO WHAT'S ALLOWED UNDER INDIANA STATE LAW. BUT WILL -- WILL SET THE RATES THROUGH THE BUDGETING 
          PROCESS. >> GOT IT. THANKS. 
          >> QUESTIONS? COUNCILLOR LOCKE. >> I HAVE A FEW. CAN YOU GO TO THE NEW DUTY THE CHIEF IN THIS AMENDMENT? JUST FOR -- I WAS -- READING THE INTERNET. NOT LISTEN WELL. 
          >> GIVING THE CHIEF THE AUTHORIZATION. IT WAS A NEW DUTY, THE CHIEF COULD SET SOMETHING AND I WAS READING 
          STATUTE. >> IF THE LAW CHANGES, THEN -- 
          [01:05:15]
OKAY. WE NEED TO GO BACK IN AND REPAIR THAT. YOU KNOW, REPAIR THE ORDINANCE. AND COME BACK THROUGH THE -- PROCESS. 
          >> OKAY. AND YOU KNOW, I GO BACK TO OUR FIRST CONVERSATION HERE. 
          AND I THINK IT'S -- TWOFOLD. ONE, ON THE RATE ITSELF, AND THEN ONE OF THE NEW RATE. TRY TO THINK THROUGH THE EXTERNALITIES OF THIS BEHAVIOR. WE TALKED ABOUT THE PRIMARY ROLE OF GOVERNMENT IS TO CREATE THE SERVICES THAT ALLOW PEOPLE TO BE SAFE AND SECURE IN THEIR COMMUNITIES. SO I'M -- GRAPPLING WITH THE CONCEPT OF THE RATE AGAIN. AND JUST TRYING TO GET US TO A POINT AND I KNOW WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT SPECIFICALLY SETTING IT TONIGHT. BUT ENSURING THAT THE CONCEPT WE ALL PAID IN FROM A TAX BASE TO RECEIVE THE SERVICES FROM THE FIRE DEPARTMENT TO ENSURE THAT WE ARE SAFE IN THE INSTANCES THAT WE'RE NEEDED TO BE SUPPORTED ON OUR WAY TO THE MEDICAL FACILITY THAT WE NEED TO GO. I THINK IS TOP OF MIND FOR ME AND THAT WE DON'T CREATE A PROHIBITIVE POINT AT WHICH PEOPLE CAN'T OR DON'T WANT TO CALL 911 TO RECEIVE THE HELP THAT THEY NEED. AND I SAY THAT OBVIOUSLY TYING IT TO MEDICARE AND MEDICAID'S REIMBURSEMENT COVERS THAT FOR THOSE INDIVIDUALS BUT THOSE THAT DON'T HAVE THAT COVERAGE OR ARE MAKING DECISIONS BASED ON THE FINANCIAL REALITIES OF THEIR MEDICAL TREATMENT, THE HIGHER THE RATE, THE MORE LIKELY THEY ARE NOT TO CALL. AND THEN FOR THE $500 FEE, IS WE'RE THINKING THROUGH THAT, YEAH, IT SEEMS THAT FACILITIES SPECIFICALLY ASSISTED LIVING ONES, SHOULD TAKE CARE OF THEIR OWN PATIENTS. 
          BUT IF THEY DON'T HAVE THE MANPOWER OR CONCERN IF THERE'S A LIABILITY ISSUE THAT WE'RE -- TRYING TO AVOIDER THEY'RE TRYING TO AVOID BY CALLING THE FIRE DEPARTMENT. LIKE -- THAT'S ONE THING. BUT IF THEY'RE CALLING THE FIRE DEPARTMENT BECAUSE IT'S THE BEST OUTCOME FOR THE PATIENT, THE IDEA OF CREATING A PROHIBITION ON THAT THROUGH A RATE MAKES THEM PUT THAT PERSON THAT'S FALLEN INTO A WORSE SCENARIO POTENTIALLY. SO -- I GUESS I'M THINKING OUT LOUD AND THE CONCEPT AND I KNOW WE TALKED ABOUT THE FALL SPECIFICALLY LAST TIME. THINKING -- FROM LEEK A DATA PERSPECTIVE. DO WE HAVE DATA WHERE THE FALL FEE HAS BEEN IMPLEMENTED AND HAVE WE SEEN A DECLINE THEN AFTER THE IMPLEMENTATION IN CALLS TO PICK PEOPLE UP OR -- 
          >> I THINK THIS TYPE OF FEE IMPLEMENTATION IS NEW TO MOST COMMUNITIES. AND NOT FOR FALLS. SO -- THERE'S A DIFFERENTIATION BETWEEN US BEING DISPATCHED ON A FALL AND BEING DISPATCHED ON A LIFT ASSIST. AND WHEN THESE FACILITIES CALL, THEY -- THEY'RE TELLING THE DISPATCHER, THIS IS A LIFT ASSIST. SO THAT'S ALL WE'RE GOING THERE FOR. THE -- DISPATCHER IS, YOU KNOW, ASKING QUESTIONS AND APPLYING THE RESPONSE CODE TO FALLS. KNOWING THAT SO THERE'S SOMETHING MORE SIGNIFICANT THERE THAN JUST THE LIFT ASSIST. AND IN MY EXPERIENCE AND GOING ON THESE FOR MANY, MANY YEARS, THERE ARE TRAINED STAFF. THE CNAS, THE OTHER FOLKS, THEY'RE TRAINED ON HOW TO LIFT PEOPLE. THEY APPLY THE GATE BELTS EVERY DAY AS THEY'RE DOING PHYSICAL THERAPY. 
          OR MOVING PEOPLE FROM BED TO CHAIR. TO LUNCH AND DINNER AND BACK AGAIN. I DON'T KNOW WHY -- THERE'S BEEN SOME ISSUE OF LIABILITY THERE. THAT'S BEING TRANSFERRED TO OUR 911 SYSTEM. 
          AND AS WE'RE LOOKING AT, YOU KNOW, INDRISSED CALLS FOR SERVICE HAVING SOME OF OUR UNITS OUT OF SERVICE FOR THAT, I FEEL THAT'S WHY WE NEED TO RECOUP A FEE. I -- CERTAINLY YOU KNOW, BENJAMIN CAN TALK ABOUT QUESTIONS OF FOLKS STRUGGLING TO PAY THEIR AMBULANCE BILL AND -- IT'S WRITE OFFS FOR THAT. VERY, VERY LOW FROM A STANDPOINT OF SOMEONE SAYING I CALLED 911 AND I CAN'T PAY THIS BILL. VERY FEW COME BACK TO OUR OURAGENCY -- TO OUR CORPORATE COUNCIL FOR THAT. AND BECAUSE WE'RE WORKING WITH THEM. YOU KNOW, WE CAN -- SET THEM UP ON A PAYMENT PLAN. 
          AND THERE ARE CERTAIN CRITERIA FOR WRITEOFFS THAT WE HAVE AND WE BASE THAT KIND OF OFF OF THE HOSPITALS' WRITEOFF POLICY FOR THAT. IF THEY QUALIFY, WE WRITE THAT OFF BUT IT'S VERY, VERY 
          [01:10:04]
LOW. THESE WERE ADJUSTMENTS FROM 2024. SO YOU CAN SEE -- BECAUSE YOU KNOW, OUR RATES ARE -- PRETTY LOW ANYWAY BUT WE'RE CHARGING A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN MEDICAID RATES AND THAT'S WHY IT'S THE BIGGEST WRITEOFF AMOUNT THERE. AND AGAIN, MEDICAID IS 10% OF OUR CALLS. SO WE'RE -- YOU KNOW, OF THE $4.5 MILLION WE'RE BILLING OUT, THE LARGE CHUNK OF WRITEOFF IS MEDICARE CREDIT OR OTHER ISSUES THERE. VERY SMALL. MAYBE TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION ABOUT PEOPLE BEING CONCERNED ABOUT THE PRICE BEFORE WE -- BEFORE THEY'RE CALLING 911. 
          >> YEAH. FOR SURE. WELL, THAT'S THE -- I MEAN, IT LOOKS LIKE THE RATE AND I GOOGLED THAT. THAT'S WHAT I WAS GOOGLING WHEN I WAS NOT LISTENING BUT LOOKSLIKE IT'S $442 BASED ON JUST A QUICK GOOGLE. I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S RIGHT. THE IDEA OF 400% OF THAT, THE 300% ABOVE THE 100% OF THE $442 WOULD GO TO WRITEOFF AND/OR TO PAYMENT IF IT GETS THERE. AND I -- JUST AGAIN, TRYING TO THINK AND REALLY SO AGAIN WE'RE NOT CHILLING THE BEHAVIOR. KNOWING FULL WELL THAT THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT PIECE OF THE SERVICES THAT WE'RE PROVIDING IN OUR CITY. THAT THERE'S NOT A COST RECOVERY ELEMENT AND IF THERE IS ONE THAT WE'RE WEIGHING THAT AGAINST THE NEED FOR THIS TO BE AN AVAILABLE SERVICE. THE RIGHT WAY OPPOSED TO JUST BEING COST RECOVERY ON ITS FACE SPECIFICALLY FOR THE TOP BILLING NUMBER. THEN STRATEGY CLICK THINKING ABOUT THE $500 NUMBER AND MAYBE GETTING SOME FEEDBACK IF WE MOVE. THE PLAN IS PROBABLY TO SET THAT NOW BUT I WOULD LOVE TO GET FEEDBACK OR SEE IF THERE'S -- DATA ON WHETHER OR NOT THAT CHANGES THE BEHAVIOR BECAUSE RIGHT NOW, IF -- I NEEDED A LIFT, I WOULD RATHER THE MEN AND WOMEN OF THE CARMEL FIRE DEPARTMENT PICK ME UP. BUT THAT BEING SAID, I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH CONTEXT THERE TO KNOW WHY THEY'RE NOT DOING THAT OR IF IT'S A -- GLOBAL THING OR IF THERE'S SPECIFIC INSTANCES. 
          LIKE THERE'S JUST -- IT SEEMS LIKE A MOVING THING AND I LIKE THE IDEA OF CHILLING THAT BEHAVIOR IF THEY'RE CAPABLE AND THEY'RE TRAINED TO DO IT IN THE -- ASSISTED LIVING FACILITIES. 
          BUT AGAIN, IF WE'RE THE BEST AT IT AND THERE'S A REASON FOR THAT, MAYBE THERE'S A FEE THAT'S REASONABLE THAT THEY WOULD WANT TO PAY TO DO THAT. I DON'T KNOW, THAT'S WHERE MY 
          HEAD IS ON THIS ISSUE STILL. >> FIVE YEARS OF -- WHAT IT COSTS PER TRANSPORT. THAT'S KIND OF WHERE WE WERE LOOKING AT $800 OUT OF POCKET. SO WE DID -- YOU KNOW, CRUNCH SOME NUMBERS THERE AND TRY TO COME UP WITH THAT. SO A LITTLE BIT LESS THAN FOR US TO RESPOND OUT THERE. THE FUEL AND WEAR AND TEAR ON THE PART OF THE TRUCK AND LADDER TRUCK. THAT'S KIND OF WHERE THE $500 LANDS US IN THERE TO YOUR POINT A LITTLE BIT BUT WE DIDN'T EXTRAPOLATE NUMBERS SPECIFIC TO A LIFT ASSIST BUT WE WANTED TO KIND OF IF I CAN BE FRANK KIND OF PUT THOSE FOLKS ON NOTICE AND IF THIS DOES CAUSE A BIGGER DISCUSSION ABOUT SERVICES THERE I'M HAPPY TO HELP WITH THAT. I DON'T KNOW IT'S GOING TO MAKE A DENT AND WE DON'T HAVE DATA YET BECAUSE THIS FEE THAT THE COMMUNITIES ARE LOOKING ACROSS THE COUNTRY IS -- IS NEW. 
          BUT IT'S AN ISSUE ACROSS THE COUNTRY. BECAUSE WE LOOKED AT OTHER STATES AND KIND OF WHAT THEY'RE DOING. THIS ISN'T JUST AN INDIANA OR CARMEL PROBLEM. EMS, YOU KNOW, FIRE AGENCIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY ARE LOOKING AT THIS. 
          >> FOR SURE, ONE FOLLOW-UP TOO. I WOULD HATE FOR US TO DO THIS AND THEN THAT FEE IMMEDIATELY BE PASSED ON TO THE RESIDENTS OF 
          THE FACILITY. >> CORRECT. I THOUGHT A LOT 
          ABOUT THAT. >> ENSURING THAT WE'RE -- REALLY PUNISHING THE BEHAVIOR OR TRYTOLOGY RECTIFY THE RHEOBASE OF NOT DOING THEIR BEAUTY TO PICK UP THEIR OWN RESIDENTS WHEN THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE ASSISTING THEIR LIVING IS I 
          THINK KEY THERE TOO. SO -- >> KEITH, TO CLARIFY THE FACILITY IS THE ONE WHO'S BILLED. NOW IF THEY CHOOSE TO CHARGE THEIR RESIDENT, THEN -- I DON'T KNOW IF -- IS THERE A -- 
          [01:15:10]
IS THERE A -- WHAT DO THEY CALL THAT? THE DESCRIPTION OF THE SERVICE THAT GOES TO MEDICARE AND MEDICAID. WHAT'S THAT? 
          CODE. IS THERE A -- YEAH. >> ICD. IT'S AN ICD CODE FOR THE ACTUAL SERVICE AND THEN THE BILLING CODE. 
          >> I WONDER IF THERE'S EVEN A BILLING CODE THAT THEY CAN CHARGE THE INDIVIDUAL FOR THE LIFT ASSIST. IS THERE? 
          >> THERE IS A BILLING CODE FOR A FALL AND FALL RECOVERY AND SO THERE WILL BE I MEAN, IT'S -- DISTINCTLY POSSIBLE THAT WE COULD CREATE AN ISSUE. BUT I THINK -- 
          >> ARE THEY ALREADY CHARGING THAT DO YOU THINK ANYHOW WHEN 
          THERE'S A SITUATION? >> YOU KNOW, IT'S A GREAT QUESTION. AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT REALLY YOU HAVE TO FIND OUT ABOUT IS WORKING WITH THESE FACILITIES TO SEE WHAT IS -- WHAT IS IT THAT IS IN THEIR CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATION TO THE PATIENT THAT THEY'RE CARING OR WITHIN THE FACILITY AND SO IF THAT IS COVERED, WITHIN THE, YOU KNOW, THE CONTRACTUAL FEES, THEN IT'S COVERED. AND THEN THEY'RE JUST USING EMS AS THEIR KIND OF -- NO PUN INTENDED. FALL GUY. TO TAKE CARE OF, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S HAPPENING. BUT I THINK IF THE FEE -- IF IT'S NOT SPELLED OUT, THEY COULD ADD IT AND THAT ADDRESSES, YOU KNOW, COUNCILLOR LOCKE'S CONCERN. IT COULD GET PASSED ON UNFAUXINGLY. I UNDERSTAND YOUR FRUSTRATION WITH THIS ISSUE FOR SURE. I ALSO UNDERSTAND THERE ARE TRAINED STAFF IN THE FACILITIES TO DO THIS JOB. THEY HAVE TO BE BECAUSE THEY -- ARE REQUIRED TO PROVIDE THAT SERVICE. THAT'S A BASIC SERVICE. SO WE JUST -- WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE'RE GOING TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUE TO CURB BAD BEHAVIOR. AND NOT ACCIDENTALLY PUNISH INNOCENT 
          PEOPLE. THAT'S REALLY THE -- >> COUNCILWOMAN? 
          >> I GUESS THIS IS DIRECTED SINCE WE HAVE THE MEDICAL EXPERT 
          WITH US HERE TONIGHT. >> I'M NOT -- REMEMBER I'M A PEDIATRICIAN ON THE OTHER END OF THAT SPECTRUM. 
          >> SO -- CONVERSELY TO THAT, THE CONCERN WOULD BE IF THEY HAVE IN THEIR CONTRACTS AND THEY'RE DOING IT AND WE'RE CHARGING THEM ON TOP OF IT AND I'M NOT -- I'M NOT INSINUATING THEY WOULD DOUBLE DIP BUT THAT MIGHT BE AN ISSUE AS WELL. JUST 
          SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT. >> MY ONE FRONT END HESITATION IS I DON'T WANT ANYONE IS NOT BE LIFTED WHEN THEY NEED TO BE LIFTED. IF THE CONCEPT OF THE FEE PUTS A COMPANY IN A POSITION WHERE THEY'RE JUST NOT GOING TO CALL, AND JUST NOT LIFT THAT HUMAN AND THAT HUMAN IS NOW STUCK OR IN A POSITION WHERE THEY -- DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT STAFF OR THE RIGHT STRUCTURE, NOW WE'VE INVENT SIZED THE BEHAVIOR OF NOT CALLING FOR THE HELP. THAT'S A -- THAT'S A STRUGGLE ON TRYING TO CREATE IT. 
          AGAIN I THINK IT MAKES REASONABLE SENSE TO ENSURE THAT THOSE THAT CAN AND SHOULD LIFT ARE LIFTING. AND NOT CALLING FOR LIFT SUPPORT TO GET OUT OF LEGAL ISSUE THAT THEY HAVE TAKEN ON BY RUNNING AN ASSISTED LIVING FACILITY, THAT -- THAT SEEMS A BROADER QUESTION LIKE IF THEY'RE NOT DOING WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO DO. MAYBE THEIR LICENSE SHOULD BE CHANGED AND THAT'S THE SCOPE BUT REALLY TRYING TO ENSURE AGAIN AS WE CREATE THIS AND THIS WORKS APPROPRIATELY FOR YOU GUYS, AND PUTS YOU IN THE BEST POSITIONDOES HAVE SOME COST RECOVERY FOR THINGS THAT SHOULD BE ALREADY BEING DONE BY THESE FACILITIES. WE DON'T LOSE ONE SINGLE LIFT THAT COULD HAVE AND SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED IN THE ETHER BECAUSE IT'S SOMEBODY'S LIFE STUCK ON THE FLOOR OR STUCK 
          IN BED OR NOT MOVING. >> COUNCILMEMBER? 
          >> I THINK THEY HAVE A DUTY AND AN OBLIGATION DO LIFT THE PATIENT. THERE NO QUESTION THAT THAT HAS TO OCCUR. THEY'RE BOUND BY THAT. THE QUESTION IS, HOW ARE THEY DOING IT? AND SO THAT'S REALLY THE ISSUE. BUT -- I THINK, YOU KNOW, QUESTION IS SPOT ON. IN NOT WANTING TO HARM ANYONE, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IT'S A MISUSE OF PUBLIC RESOURCES FOR A PRIVATE FACILITY TO AVAIL THEMSELVES OF THE PUBLIC TO TAKE CARE OF SOMETHING THEY'RE ALREADY CHARGING FOR IN THEIR FACILITY AND ARE REQUIRED TO PROVIDE. THIS IS KIND OF HOW DO WE -- WE LEGISLATE GOOD BEHAVIOR? I GUESS IS REALLY THE QUESTION. 
          >> THANK YOU. JUST SOME QUESTIONS FOR -- ONE THING I DO REALLY LIKE IS CAPPING OUT OF POCKET EXPENSE FOR CARMEL RESIDENTS. CARMEL RESIDENTS, AS THECOUNCILLOR'S POINT ARE 
          [01:20:05]
ALREADY PAYING FOR PUBLIC SAFETY THROUGH THEIR PROPERTY TAXES AND LOCAL INCOME TAXES. I DO AGREE WITH CAPPING THE OUT OF POCKET EXPENSES FOR OUR RESIDENTS. I REALLY APPRECIATE THAT ADDITION TO THE ORDINANCE. ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS? IS THERE A MOTION OR 
          ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION? >> I WOULD MAKE A MOTION BASED ON THE DISCUSSION TONIGHT TO SEND THIS BACK TO COUNCIL WITH A 
          POSITIVE RECOMMENDATION. >> WE HAVE A MOTION AND DO WE 
          HAVE A SECOND? >> I DID NOT REALLY HEAR CONSENSUS ON THIS. NO. I CAN'T SECOND THIS. I THINK THIS HAS RAISED MORE QUESTIONS AND THERE IS MORE DISCUSSION TO BE HAD AND I THINK THERE'S MORE WORK TO BE DONE ON THIS UNLESS YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT HOLDS YOU UP. THAT THIS IS TIME SENSITIVE. THE ONLY THING I COULD AGREE TO IS TO AMEND TO APPROVE ALL OF THE CHANGES IN THE AMENDMENT. BUT THIS LIFT FEE I JUST HEARD IT SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF DISCUSSION WHERE I DON'T THINK THE MATTER HAS BEEN RESOLVED. SO. I'D LIKE TO GO BACK AND UNDERSTAND HOW IF WE'RE -- PATTERNING OTHER COMMUNITIES, HOW ARE THEY DOING IT? WHAT RESPONSES HAVE THEY GOT AND HOW WAS IT AFFECTING THE -- FACILITIES AND THERE'S A LOT MORE QUESTIONS HERE THAT I THINK WE SHOULD DIG INTO IF WE'RE GOING TO DO OUR JOB. 
          >> I WONDER -- IF WE CAN MOVE THIS -- IF WE MOVE THIS WITH AN AMENDMENT WITHOUT THE LIFT FEE. GET THE OTHER JUST MORE -- BASIC CHANGES TO THE ORDINANCE MADE. AND THEN WE CAN FURTHER DISCUSS 
          THE LIFT FEE LATER. >> YOU SAID HE'S GOT THE 
          MOTION. SO -- >> BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE A SECOND. SO. YOU CAN AMEND YOUR MOTION. 
          >> I'LL SECOND. HEY, RICH, I'LL SECOND. 
          >> OKAY, WE HAVE COUNSELOR GREENE SECOND AND WE HAVE A MOTION AND A SECOND. OKAY. SO I WILL CALL -- ROBERT'S ROLE IS AND I WILL CALL THE QUESTION. WE DO THE ROLL CALL VOTE, PLEASE? 
          ROLL CALL ] >> TO CLARIFY, THIS WOULD BE ON THE MOTION WITHOUT THE AMENDMENTS? 
          >> HE SECONDED YOUR EXISTING MOTION. 
          >> RIGHT. I WILL -- OPPOSE MY OWN MOTION. 
          >> MOTION -- MOTION DOES NOT CARRY. AND IS THERE ANOTHER MOTION YOU'D LIKE TO MAKE? ANYBODY LIKE TO MAKE? 
          >> IT'S NOT -- GO AHEAD. >> CORPORATION COUNCIL? MOTION 
          DIED. >> SO -- WHAT YOU HAVE HERE, WHAT CAME WAS A DIFFERENT VERSION. RIGHT? SO YOU HAVE A PROPOSAL IN THE HIGHLIGHTED GREEN AND THE GREEN SECTIONS, WE HAVEN'T YET BEEN APPROVED AS PART OF AN AMENDMENT TO THEN SEND BACK. SO THAT WILL BE THE FIRST THING IS APPROVING THE LANGUAGE THAT'S BEEN AMENDED AND THEN ONCE THAT'S BEEN APPROVED TO SEND THAT BACK. TO THERE'S STILL ROOM HERE POTENTIALLY WITH ADDRESSING SOME OF THE CONCERNS WITH THE AMENDED LANGUAGE BECAUSE IT'S TECHNICALLY NOT IN PLACE BECAUSE IT HASN'T -- HASN'T YET BEEN APPROVED. BUT THINGS THAT COULD BE DONE, FOR EXAMPLE, TO ADDRESS SOME OF YOUR CONCERNS. IF WE -- GO DOWN TO, WE HAVE THE -- LIFT ASSIST FEE FOR THE FACILITY. YOU CAN CHANGE THAT TO BE MAYAND YOU CAN ALSO CHANGE IT TO UP TO DOLLAR VALUE. IT ALLOWS FOR A LEVEL OF DISCRETION TO -- AND YOU CAN ALSO CHANGE IT TO ALLOW FOR TO REFLECT -- BUT THESE ARE THINGS THAT COULD BE DONE TO THE EXTENT THAT THERE ARE CONCERNS WITH IT. I ONLY SUGGESTED IT AS A PROPOSAL. BUT I SEE -- 
          >> SO BENJAMIN, WE COULD DO A MOTION TO AMEND ONLY ACCEPTING CERTAIN COMPONENTS THAT HAVE BEEN AMENDED SINCE LAST TIME IT 
          WAS PRESENTED. >> YEP. ABSOLUTELY. 
          >> AND -- AND EXCLUDING SOME OF THOSE AMENDMENTS THAT WE DON'T 
          AGREE WITH. >> EXACTLY. 
          >> THAT COULD BE THE MOTION THAT COULD BE MADE. 
          >> SO IT WOULD BE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE AMENDMENTS AND EXCLUDING TO THE EXTENT IT IS THE LIFT ASSIST THAT IS THE ISSUE. WOULD BE EXCLUDING C1 ROMAN NUMERAL IV. 
          >> JUST REAL QUICK. SO FOR MY FELLOW COMMITTEE MEMBERS, THE -- REASON WHY I VOTED AYE IS BECAUSE I ACTUALLY PERSONALLY KNOW LOT OF FIRE CHIEFS THAT RUN E MS ACROSS THE STATE OF INDIANA AND I ACTUALLY -- CALLED THEM ABOUT THIS VERY ISSUE AND HAD 
          [01:25:03]
THIS DISCUSSION. SO WHEN CHIEF THACKER AND I DISCUSSED THIS, THAT'S WHY I WAS SUPPORTIVE OF THIS BECAUSE I KNOW THE ONGOING ISSUE AND HOW THEY'VE HANDLED IT IN OTHER PLACES. SO WITH SOME OTHER FIRE CHIEFS SO I JUST HAVE A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE FROM THIS BY PERSONAL CONVERSATIONS I HAVE HAD THROUGHOUT THE STATE. 
          BUT -- I JUST WANTED TO -- MAKE SURE EVERYBODY UNDERSTOOD MY AYE 
          VOTE FOR RYAN'S MOTION. >> ALSO HOLD IT OVER TO THE NEXT COMMITTEE MEETING TO ADDRESS THE CONCERNS THAT HAVE BEEN RAISED AND ALIEU THE FIRE DEPARTMENT TO REVIEW THE AMOUNT AND HOW -- IT 
          CAN BE CHANGED AS WELL. >> DO WE WANT TO -- SO FOR MY FELLOW MEMBERS DO WE WANT TO ADDRESS THE AMENDMENTS BESIDES THE LIFT ASSIST FEE? AND APPROVE THOSE AMENDMENTS AND SET IT BACK AND WE CAN HAVE FURTHER DISCUSSION LATER ABOUT THE LIFT ASSIST OR DO WE WANT TO JUST HOLD IT AND CONTINUE TO -- 
          DISCUSS? PRESIDENT AUSTIN? >> YES, THROWING OUT OPTIONS HERE AND IT SOUND LIKE THERE'S QUESTIONS YOU WANT TO STILL HAVE ANSWERED. IF YOU CANNOT GET A -- FINANCE MEETING SCHEDULED PRIOR TO THE NEXT COUNCIL MEETING, EITHER YOU CAN WAIT OR IF -- SOMEHOW YOU FEEL LIKE YOU HAVE GOT YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED WITHOUT THE COMMITTEE MEETING, YOU KNOW, TALKING TO SO AND SO OR AN EMAIL, IT COULD BE PULLED OUT OF COMMITTEE BY THE -- PRESIDENT PRESIDING IF -- BUT I THINK MY OPINION WOULD BE REALLY ONLY PULL THAT IN THE COMMITTEE IF THE MEMBERS THEMSELVES WANT 
          THAT TO HAPPEN. >> ALL RIGHT. COUNCIL MAN LOCKE? 
          >> WE'RE NOD UNDER A TIME CONSTRAINT. SO I WOULD -- YOU KNOW, I'D RATHER UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, WHAT -- YOU KNOW, FURTHER CONSTERNATION THERE WOULD BE ON THIS -- THIS PARTICULAR BECAUSEI FEEL IT'S THIS PARTICULAR ASPECT IS A REASON FOR HESITATION AND LOVE TO MEET WITH YOU AND DISCUSS. 
          YOU KNOW, WHAT -- INSTEAD OF MOVING SOMETHING FORWARD THAT'S 
          KIND OF PIECEMEAL. >> OKAY. COUNCILMEMBER LOCKE? 
          >> MY THOUGHT WAS WELL, CAN WE -- MAKE THIS AMENDMENTS TONIGHT TO THE -- THING THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT AND HOLD IT IN COMMITTEE AND THEN TAKE THIS AND GET FEEDBACK FROM THE COMMUNITY AND FROM ASSISTED LIVING FACILITIES AND SEE WHAT THEY THINK ABOUT THAT LANGUAGE AND BRING IT BACK AND TALK ABOUT IT WITH THE DATA? BECAUSE RIGHT NOW WE'VE GOT KIND OF A DOUBLE ORDINANCE. THE FIRST TIME WE'VE SEEN THIS LANGUAGE ON THE SLIDES FOR ME IS TONIGHT HERE ON THE SLIDES SO TRYING TO THINK IT THROUGH ON THE FLY. BUT IF WE AMEND WHAT WE HAVE TO PUT THIS LANGUAGE IN THAT YOU HAVE RECOMMENDED, AND THEN TAKE THAT AND SOCIALIZE IT AROUND AND LET PEOPLE KIND OF GIVE US FEEDBACK AND GET SOME AND BRING IT BACK TO COMMITTEE AND TALK ABOUT IT, THAT MIGHT BE ABLE TO GIVE US SOME ANSWERS AND BASED ON YOUR POINT LIKE WE'RE GOING TO LEAVE THE FEES WHERE THEY ARE FOR THE YEAR IF IT'S GOING INTO THE BUDGET PROCESS WE'RE NOT GOING TO CHANGE THEM FOR THIS YEAR ANYWAY. UNLESS THERE'S SOME PROCEDURAL REASON TO REMOVE THE TOWNSHIP OR MAKE THE OTHER CHANGES THAT HAS AN IMMEDIATE IMPACT ON THEEFFICACY OF THE PROGRAM I THINK WE'RE FINE TO HOLD IT UNTIL WE GET TO A POINT 
          OF UNDERSTANDING. >> TO YOUR POINT THIS LANGUAGE LAB IN THERE FOR A LONG TIME. LONG AFTER THE TOWNSHIP HAS GIVEN UP THEIR FIRE PROTECTION LEVY TO THE CITY AND THE CITY HOPEFULLY ANNEXED CLAY TOWNSHIP. COUNCILMEMBER? 
          >> YOUR POINT IS -- OKAY TO WAIT? 
          >> YEAH. >> OKAY. YEAH. SO -- THE -- CHIEF, LISTEN, I TRUST YOU ANDI TRUST YOUR TEAM AND YOUR STAFF. 
          I THINK YOU KNOW, COUNCIL LOVE TAYLOR SAID HE IS VERY FAMILIAR WITH. I THINK WE SHOULD COME TO THE MEETING WITH INFORMATION ABOUT HOW THIS -- WOULD AFFECT OUR -- OUR CITIZENS. OUR -- THAT'S THE CONCERN I'M GOING TO HAVE BEFORE I -- EVEN THOUGH I LOVE PUTTING MORE MONEY IN THE CITY'S COFFERS, AND DOING SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T SEEM FAIR, CALLING US INSTEAD OF THEM DOING IT THEMSELVES AS THAT'S BEEN DESCRIBED TO US BUT I DON'T HAVE THE CONNECTION TO OTHER FIRE CHIEFS. SO COUNCILLOR TAYLOR SHARE THAT US OR GIVE US YOUR FEEDBACK. I AM NOT. I WANT TO HEAR FROM A FACILITY IN CARAMEL THAT SAYS OH MY GOSH. 
          YOU ARE DOING WHAT? AND I WANT TO -- I WANT TO TALK TO THEM BEFORE WE DO IT AND UNDERSTAND HOW THAT WORKS. SO. 
          TRANSITIONING ] 
          [01:32:43]
          >> I DON'T KNOW IF ANY INDUSTRY ORGANIZATIONS OR PUBLICATIONS RELATED TO FIRE AND EMS HAVE ADDRESSED OR TALKED ABOUT THIS ISSUE, MAYBE THERE IS SOMETHING THERE WE CAN FIND AND SEND OUT. 
          [b. Ordinance D-2770-25; An Ordinance of the Common Council of the City of Carmel, Indiana,  Adopting a New Article 6 Under Chapter 4 of the Carmel City Code; Sponsor(s): Councilor(s)  Aasen, Taylor, Snyder and Ayers.  ]
          >> CERTAINLY, THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU, CHIEF. NEXT WE WILL MOVE ON TO ITEM E ON THE AGENDA, ORDINANCE ADOPTING REQUIREMENTS THAT RESIDENTIAL DWELLINGS REGISTERED IN OBTAINING A PERMIT BEFORE LETTING A RESIDENTIAL DWELLING AND LIMITS THE NUMBER OF AUTHORIZED RESIDENTIAL DWELLING PERMITS TO 10% OF ALL HOMES WITH ANY SUBDIVISION OR CITY OF TACOMA AS A WHOLE. WE WILL HAVE TED KNOWLTON, COUNSEL LEGAL COME UP TO ADDRESS. I DID WANT TO NOTE THAT THERE WAS TWO SUGGESTED AMENDMENTS TO THE ORDINANCE, ONE, JUST CLARIFYING A CONCERN OF THE COUNCILMEN THAT THIS DOESN'T SUPERSEDE ANY ACTIONS AND CCR'S BY HOA'S AND ALSO, CURRENTLY RIGHT NOW, WE HAD A COUNCIL APPROVED AND CURRENTLY UNDER CONSTRUCTION IS A BUILD TO RENT A COMMUNITY IN LEGACY OBVIOUSLY SHOWING OUR SUPPORT FOR POSSIBLE SINGLE-FAMILY RENTALS, PARTICULARLY THAT ARE BUILT FOR, NEIGHBORHOODS THAT ARE BUILT FOR THAT PURPOSE AND ALSO AS WE HEARD FROM JUSTIN AND HENRY TODAY, BASICALLY SINGLE-FAMILY RENTALS PROPOSED TO THE NORTH AND DEVELOPMENT WHICH OBVIOUSLY WE ARE VERY SUPPORTIVE OF, SO TED, IF YOU WANT TO GO THROUGH THOSE TWO ITEMS AND ALSO QUESTIONS FROM THE COMMITTEE. AND WE CAN MOVE ON TO ADDITIONAL 
          [01:35:07]
          QUESTIONS. >> THERE WAS ACTUALLY THREE BIG AMENDMENTS HERE THAT I DID , UNDER THE DEFINITION OF EXCLUDED RENTAL DWELLINGS, IT WAS A LITTLE CONFUSING BECAUSE AN X HOODED RENTAL DWELLING IS STILL A RESIDENTIAL DWELLING, WE WERE JUST ABLE TO GET THE PERMIT , SO I CHANGED THAT TO PERMITTED SO PEOPLE READING THIS WOULD BE CONFUSED THAT THEY DON'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING AND THEY STILL DO. SECOND, I REMOVED THE SHORT-TERM RENTAL FROM THAT DEFINITION BECAUSE THE WAY IT WAS WRITTEN, SHORT-TERM RENTALS WOULD HAVE TO REGISTER, SO I TOOK THAT OUT, AND I ADDED IT UNDER RESIDENTIAL DWELLINGS , I SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDED SHORT-TERM RENTALS, OR DWELLINGS WITHIN A RENTAL UNIT COMMUNITY WHICH IS DEFINED UNDER STATE LAW AND ALSO, SO IT IS SEPARATE FROM 36 .1 WHICH DEALS WITH PERMITS AND REGISTRATIONS AND THE FACT THAT IT CAN ONLY REQUIRE A PERMIT FOR ONE COMMUNITY RENTAL UNIT, AND I ALSO ADDED A SECTION THAT SPECIFICALLY INCLUDES BUILD TO RENT TO COMMUNITIES SPECIFICALLY BY THE CITY OF CARMEL JUST TO AVOID ANY CONFUSION. UNDER SECTION 4-500, NOTHING TO PREEMPT THE AUTHORITY OF THE HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATE, CONDOMINIUM ASSOCIATION OR OTHER AMENITY TO ADOPT RESTRICTION RULES THAT ARE MORE RESTRICTIVE, JUST TO BE CLEAR, HOA'S AND CONDO UNITS, AND CONDO CAN BE SINGLE-FAMILY HOMES, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A CONDO AS YOU THINK OF, SO JUST WANT TO BE CLEAR. OTHER THAN THAT, THAT'S THE BIG THING, THERE WAS ONE OTHER CHANGE UNDER 504 THAT WAS JUST A TYPO LEFT OUT, SO I INCLUDED THAT HERE. AND I'M HAPPY TO 
          ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS YOU HAVE. >> ONE THING, COULD YOU CLARIFY THE CHANGE TO THE LANGUAGE ABOUT HOA'S , REGARDLESS, THIS ORDINANCE HAS WRITTEN WHEN IT SUPERSEDED THAT, THAT MAKES IT 
          VERY CLEAR. >> CORRECT, THIS WILL APPLY REGARDLESS AND HOA CAN HAVE MORE STRICT STANDARDS . 
          >> RIGHT. >> I'M HAPPY TO KICK US OFF. 
          OKAY, SO WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO DO IS TO SPEND MY TIME KIND OF CLARIFYING FOR THE PUBLIC WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT, SO I'M GOING TO ASK SOME QUESTIONS THAT MAY SEEM OBVIOUS BUT THERE MAY BE ANOTHER REASON WHY I'M ASKING THAT QUESTION DOWN THE ROAD. SO THE FIRST ONE IS, THE FIRST COMMENT I WILL MAKE IS THAT I HEARD REALLY TWO MAIN ISSUES FROM OUR SPEAKERS TONIGHT ABOUT WHY THEY WERE FOR THIS AND ONE OF THEM WAS, THEIR INABILITY, BECAUSE OF THE RENTAL UNITS IN THE HOA, THEY WERE UNABLE TO SUCCESSFULLY CAPTURE ENOUGH VOTES IN ORDER TO CHANGE THE BYLAWS TO PROHIBIT RENTALS. GENERALLY SPEAKING, THAT IS WHAT I THINK I HEARD. SO, I GET THAT, AND NUMBER TWO, THE LACK OF MAINTAINING THE HOME THAT IS A RENTAL. THOSE ARE THE TWO MAIN REASONS I HEARD. THERE COULD BE OTHERS BUT THAT IS WHAT I HEARD SO I'M GOING TO GO TO THE MAINTENANCE FIRST, I HAVE BEEN DOING THIS, I'M IN MY 10TH YEAR SERVING THE CITY OF CARMEL , HE KNOWS FAR TOO WELL THAT I SPEND A LOT OF TIME ON CODE ENFORCEMENT, PEOPLE CALL ME. SO, HAVE WE DONE ANY RESEARCH AS TO HOW MANY , WELL I GUESS MAYBE THERE WAS A THIRD THING I HEARD THE SPEAKERS TALK ABOUT AND THAT IS THAT THESE ARE CORPORATIONS, NOT SOMEBODY RENTING THEIR HOME BUT THESE ARE CORPORATIONS, SO ARE THERE ANY CODE ENFORCEMENT STATISTICS ABOUT THE NUMBER OF CALLS WE ARE GETTING ON RENTALS OF SINGLE-FAMILY HOMES VERSUS OWNER OCCUPIED HOMES, DO WE HAVE ANY OF THAT DATA OR STATISTICS? 
          [01:40:05]
          >> THIS IS WHERE WE ASK THAT KIND OF STUFF, THAT IS THE FIRST THING, I WANT TO UNDERSTAND THE PROBLEM THAT WE ARE TRYING TO SOLVE HERE. I KNOW WE ARE SOMEWHAT , I'M GOING TO CHOOSE MY WORDS CAREFULLY, I FEEL LIKE WE ARE CHASING FISHERS, I RECEIVE CALLS FROM PEOPLE SAYING THAT IS REALLY GREAT, WHAT FISHERS IS DOING, CAN WE DO THE SAME THING AND WE JUMPED INTO THIS. SO I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'VE GOT DATA AND REASONING BEHIND WHAT WE ARE DOING, SO THAT IS THE FIRST THING I'M GOING TO WANT TO KNOW, THAT DATA. I DID HEAR, 72 HOMES AND OTHER INSTITUTIONAL INVESTORS OUT OF THE APPROXIMATE 30,000 HOMES, I WOULD LIKE TO CONFIRM THAT WITH OUR CODE, OR DOCS , 72 HOMES, IS THAT THE ISSUE, AND I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW, ARE WE DOING 10% CITYWIDE OR ARE WE DOING 10% BY HOA? 
          >> BOTH. >> OKAY, HELP ME UNDERSTAND WHY 
          A HIGH NET. >> AS YOU KNOW, MANY OF OUR NEIGHBORHOODS DO NOT HAVE AN HOA OR RATHER VOLUNTARY HOA, SO CAN 
          YOU ADDRESS THAT ? >> IT IS PER PLAT AND SUBDIVISION WHICH IS A LEGAL TERM, I BELIEVE IT IS 10 OR MORE HOMES, 10 OR MORE SINGLE-FAMILY HOMES AS A PLAT IN THE SAME NAME, OR PUD UNDER SUBDIVISION, SO EVEN NEIGHBORHOODS WITHIN THE HOME PLACE OR SUBDIVIDED, OR AREAS THAT DON'T HAVE HOA AND 
          ARE STILL SUBDIVIDED CAN APPLY. >> SO I'M GOING BACK TO MY OTHER COMMENT BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT THE HOA'S WERE HERE EXPRESSING THEIR CONCERN ABOUT THEIR INABILITY TO CHANGE THEIR BYLAWS, TO RULE THEMSELVES BECAUSE OF THE RENTAL BOAT. I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW, WHAT IS THE LEGAL STATUS OF NOT JUST HAVING THIS ORDINANCE ONLY APPLY TO HOA'S , THAT IS JUST ONE 
          QUESTION I HAVE. >> WELL, IT DOESN'T APPLY TO HOA'S ANYWAY, IT JUST HAPPENS TO BE AN ORGANIZATION THAT HAS COVENANTS THAT CAN APPLY THEIR OWN RULES TO THE SUBDIVISION SO THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HOA. 
          >> I WANT TO KNOW THE LEGAL PROS AND CONS OF HAVING THIS ORDINANCE ONLY APPLY 10% TO LEGAL HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATIONS. 
          THAT IS MY LEGAL, I WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHY YOU CHOSE NOT TO DO THAT, I'M RAISING THAT AS A QUESTION. 
          >> SO THE QUESTION IS, I BELIEVE FISHERS IS LIMITED TO 10% WITH EACH SUBDIVISION AND DIDN'T DO IT AS A CITY AS A WHOLE. BUT AFTER DISCUSSIONS WITH SOME COUNCILMEMBERS, THAT WAS SOMETHING THEY WANTED TO SEE BECAUSE IF AN EXISTING SUBDIVISION HAD 40% OR 50% OF RENTALS THAT WERE GRANDFATHERED, THEY ARE CAPPED, BUT THAT IS GOING TO AFFECT THE AMOUNT OVERALL WITHIN THE CITY AND THEY WANTED TO KEEP THE TOTAL AMOUNT 
          WITHIN THE CITY AS WELL. >> OKAY, SO IT REALLY WAS WHOEVER YOU WERE SPEAKING TO THE COUNSELORS BUT THERE'S NO LEGAL 
          REASON . >> IT IS A POLICY REASON 100%. 
          >> OKAY, THANK YOU, THAT IS IT FOR ME, FOR NOW. 
          >> QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS? >> YOU CAN GO TO THE COMMITTEE FIRST IF YOU WANT. I HAVE SOMETHING I WANT TO BRING UP AND IF I HAVE THE WRONG VERSION OR SOMETHING, LET ME KNOW. I'M LOOKING AT THE EXCEPTIONS, EXCLUDED DWELLINGS AND THIS IS THE PART THAT I REALLY CARE ABOUT BECAUSE DURING SOME OF THE CONVERSATIONS, WHAT IF I WAS IN THIS SITUATION AND SHOULD I BE ABLE TO RENT OUT MY HOME, I WANT TO MAKE SURE WE ARE COVERING ALL OF THE REASONABLE EXCEPTIONS THAT WE ARE NOT TAKING AWAY SOMEONE'S PERSONAL PROPERTY RIGHTS WHERE THEY HAVE A REASONABLE REASON WHY THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO RENT OUT THEIR OWN, REGARDLESS IF THEY ARE OVER THE CAP. SO, ONE HERE, WE HAVE NUMBER FIVE, THE RENTAL COME OF THE DWELLING THE OWNER HAS RESIDED, AND EXPERIENCED DEATH, DIVORCE, TRANSFERRED TO ASSISTED-LIVING OR A LIFE SITUATION, AND TO VACATE THE DWELLING LAST YEAR. I'M WONDERING IF THIS IS SPECIFICALLY WRITTEN TO NARROW AND WE SHOULD MAYBE ADJUST SOME 
          [01:45:01]
OF THAT LANGUAGE, SOME PEOPLE ASKED, WHAT IF YOU WERE IN A DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SITUATION AND YOU ARE NOT DIVORCED, UNDER THIS LANGUAGE YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE DIVORCED, NOT SEPARATED. DOES THE SEPARATION WORK, TOO. OR ANOTHER FAMILY EMERGENCY? 
          >> OTHER LIFE SITUATION IS PRETTY BROAD. 
          >> SO, DO YOU THINK THAT COVERS IT ENOUGH? IF YOU THINK SO, THEN 
          -- >> IT IS BROAD ENOUGH FOR THE DIRECTOR OF COMMUNITY SERVICES TO MAKE THAT DETERMINATION, YES. 
          >> OKAY, DO WE WANT TO PUT DIVORCE, SEPARATION, JUST MAKE SURE THAT IS CLEAR, TO . YOU SAID IT MAY FIT IN THERE. 
          >> IF YOU WOULD LIKE. >> I WANT TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE DON'T LOOK IT OVER AND SAY I'M EXCLUDED, WHEN WE KNOW THERE ARE PLENTY OF REASONABLE REASONS WHY SOMEBODY MIGHT WANT TO SELL, OR RENT AT THEIR HOME. OTHER LIFE SITUATION, WHAT IF SOMEONE IS REASONABLY, THEY ARE UPSIDE DOWN ON THEIR FINANCES AND THIS IS THEIR PROPERTY AND THEY HAD A LEGITIMATE REASON WHY RENTING THIS HOME AND MAYBE THE MOVING IN WITH SOMEONE ELSE TEMPORARILY WILL HELP THEM FIX THEIR FINANCIAL SITUATION, WOULD THAT BE EXCLUDED, WOULD THEY BE ALLOWED TO DO THAT? IT SAYS HERE, IF THEY INTENT TO MOVE BACK, AND THEY MAY OR MAY NOT, THEY MAY RENT FOR A WHILE AND SELL IT OR DO SOMETHING BUT, IF IT IS YOUR HOME AND YOU WANTED TO HAVE SOME FLEXIBILITY, WHAT YOU CAN DO TO BETTER YOUR LIFE, I DON'T KNOW IF THEY WOULD WANT 
          TO EXCLUDE THOSE PEOPLE. >> I DON'T THINK THIS LIST WAS MEANT TO BE EXHAUSTIVE, I THINK IT IS MORE OF EXAMPLES OF THINGS THAT ARE LIFE SITUATIONS, I THINK LIFE SITUATIONS CAN COVER A WHOLE LITANY OF THINGS THAT AREN'T LISTED. IT IS LIFE SITUATIONS AND UNDUE HARDSHIP AND AT SOME POINT SOMEBODY IS GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE A DETERMINATION OF WHAT THAT IS. 
          >> SO, IF SOMEONE WANTS TO RENT OUT THEIR HOME, THEY ARE AGAINST THE CAP, SO THEY WOULD HAVE TO GET AN EXCEPTION, THEY GO TO DOCS AND DOCS WOULD BE THE FIRST BODY TO DECIDE WHETHER THE UNDUE HARDSHIP MEETS THE REQUIREMENT, CORRECT? SO WE GIVE DOCS SOME AUTHORITY TO MAKE THAT DECISION. DOCS DENIES THEM, WHAT IS THE 
          APPEALS PROCESS? >> THEY HAVE AN APPEALS PROCESS 
          WITH CITY COURT. >> OKAY, I THINK THAT'S MY QUESTIONS FOR NOW, I JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE. IF YOU FEEL LIKE THIS LANGUAGE WAS SUFFICIENT, BUT I WANTED TO BRING THAT UP FOR EVERYONE HERE, I DID HEAR SOME REASONABLE EXAMPLES AND I FEEL LIKE WE'VE GOT THEM COVERED BUT IF THERE'S ANYTHING WE NEED TO DO TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE KNOW THESE REASONABLE EXAMPLES, YOU WOULD HAVE AN EXCLUSION, I WANT TO MAKE SURE 
          THAT IS CLEAR. >> COUNSELOR GREEN? HE HAS A 
          LITTLE BIT OF A DELAY. >> I GOT YOU, THANKS. THE FOLLOW-UP, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE DATA FROM DOCS ON NUMBER OF HOMES INSPECTORS GET CALLED TO THAT ARE RENTALS. I KNOW SPECIFICALLY THE HOMEPLACE AREA, ONE OF THE ISSUES IS THERE AREN'T ANY HOA'S AND DURING THE EIGHT YEARS I HAVE BEEN ON THE COUNCIL , ALMOST EVERY SINGLE COMPLAINT DEALING WITH AN UNKEPT HOME, UNKEPT YARD, ALL KINDS OF VIOLATIONS WAS SOME TYPE OF RENTAL. SO, I WOULD LIKE TO GET THE DATA ON THAT. BUT, TO ASK KIND OF A QUESTION THAT GOES BACK TO A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS THAT WERE ASKED EARLIER, SO THIS HELPS, THIS ORDINANCE WOULD HELP FILL THE GAP FOR PLACES WHERE THERE AREN'T HOA'S, WHERE THEY DON'T HAVE A MECHANISM TO TRY TO PROTECT THAT SUBDIVISION , IF AN HOA LIKE SOME OF THE INDIVIDUALS WHO WENT UP AND MADE COMMENTS, IF SOME OF THOSE HAVE A HARD TIME GETTING THE VOTES NECESSARY, WOULD THEY HAVE SOME PROTECTIONS NOW AS A DEFAULT, LIKE A SUBDIVISION WITHOUT AN HOA? 
          >> I'M NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND YOUR QUESTION. 
          >> I THINK HE'S ASKING IF AN HOA IS UNABLE TO PROCESS A CAP THAT THIS ORDINANCE WOULD PROVIDE A CAP FOR THEM. 
          >> ABSOLUTELY, THIS WOULD PROVIDE A CAP REGARDLESS IF IT 
          IS AN HOA OR NOT. >> THANK YOU, SO IT'S KIND OF A PROTECTION, A SAFEGUARD, A DEFAULT FOR ALL HOMES, IF AN HOA CANNOT PASS IT FOR SOME REASON AS WELL AS SUBDIVISIONS WITHOUT 
          [01:50:03]
          HOA, SO THANK YOU. >> AND THE DATA POINT IS KIND OF KEY, HOW MANY PLATTED SUBDIVISIONS ARE THERE? HOW MANY 
          DO WE HAVE TOTAL? >> I DO NOT REMEMBER, DO YOU 
          REMEMBER, RICH? >> I DO NOT HAVE THOSE AT MY 
          FINGERTIPS. >> AND HOW MANY ARE IN A DIFFERENT SITUATION, DO WE KNOW WHAT THE IMPACT OF THIS WOULD BE ON THE CITY BECAUSE I CAN SEE THERE ARE SOME THAT ARE MAYBE AT 50% AND THERE ARE NEW RENTALS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD THAT ARE NOT MOVING AND WE DON'T KNOW WHERE THOSE NUMBERS ARE, BASED ON WHAT I HAVE, AND THEN WONDERING, LOOKING AT THE FIXES FOR THOSE THINGS, JUST VERIFYING THAT THE CAP ITSELF MITIGATES THE ISSUES BECAUSE IF WE ARE UNDER THE CAP, AND BY DATA THAT I DO HAVE, TWO DIFFERENT NUMBERS AND TWO DIFFERENT MONTHS FROM MY BOARD, ONE OF THEM WAS AT 10% AND THREE MONTHS LATER, IT IS DOWN TO 8%. 
          IF YOU GOOGLE, THERE ARE 30,000 SINGLE-FAMILY HOMES, WE HAVE MOVED FORWARD TO ADD ANOTHER 170, 72 THAT AREN'T TOWNHOMES, AND UNDERSTANDING WITH THE IMPACT OF THIS ACTUALLY IS THAT 
          I'M STRUGGLING TO SEE. >> THE ONLY WAY TO GET THE TRUE DATA , EITHER THROUGH THE REGISTRATION AND THE SOFTWARE THAT FISHERS HAS IMPLEMENTED, WHICH WE HAVE THE DATA ON THE SOFTWARE, SO WE ACTUALLY, THE DATA THAT WE DO HAVE IS THE DATA THAT MIGHT PRESENT ON FISHERS AND THE DATA THAT WAS PRESENTED ON CARMEL AND WE CURRENTLY ARE UNDER THE CAP AT 8.7 BASED ON MY BOARDS DATA BUT SIMILAR IN TOTAL PERCENTAGE AS FISHERS IS 
          CURRENTLY. YES. >> THANK YOU SO MUCH. I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT ONE OF JEFF'S COMMENTS, EXCUSE ME, WHAT I HEARD TONIGHT FROM THE RESIDENCE AS WELL AS WHAT HE HAD HEARD IS THAT BECAUSE THEIR NEIGHBORHOOD HAS SO MANY RENTALS IN THEM, AM I CORRECT IN ASSUMING THAT YOU HAVE MORE RENTAL PROPERTIES FOR VOTES TO NOT BE ABLE TO PASS CCR'S, SO YOU ARE IN A NEIGHBORHOOD NOW THAT HAS 51% MAJORITY OR WHATEVER THE MAJORITY IS IN ORDER TO COLLECT ENOUGH VOTES TO CHANGE THE CCR'S TO PUT SOME SORT OF RESTRICTION IN THE HOA'S. OKAY. 
          I WANTED TO BE SURE THAT IS WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT. SO WHEN I LOOK AT SOMETHING LIKE THIS, I JUST THINK ABOUT THOSE PEOPLE THAT WOULD LOVE TO BE ABLE TO BUY IN CARMEL, ESPECIALLY IN THE AREAS THAT TONY MENTIONED, SOME OF THEM IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD, AND LOWER-PRICED NEIGHBORHOODS, I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THOSE HOMES WILL ALWAYS BE PROTECTED AND YOU CAN ACTUALLY BUY IT AND LIVE IN IT, NOT HAVE SOMEBODY COME AND BE OUSTED BY SOMEBODY THAT HAS MORE FINANCIAL MEANS THAN SOMEBODY LIKE ME, OR A FIRST-TIME HOMEBUYER , I WANT THOSE OPPORTUNITIES TO STILL BE AVAILABLE TO PEOPLE LIVING HERE, I KNOW YOU CAN'T BE EVERYTHING FOR EVERYBODY THAT WE CAN CERTAINLY TRY AND MAINTAIN THAT DREAM AND WHEN I LISTEN TO PEOPLE TALK ABOUT AS WELL -- AND I WILL STOP RAMBLING, ONE OF THE THINGS I HEAR IS THE CODE ENFORCEMENT ISSUES AND I WANTED TO BE MADE VERY CLEAR THAT OUR CODE ENFORCEMENT DOES A VERY GOOD JOB OF GOING OUT AND TRYING TO MITIGATE THESE ISSUES WITH THESE HOMES, WHETHER THAT IS A RENTAL HOME OR WHETHER THAT IS A NEIGHBOR WHO JUST DOESN'T WANT TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR PROPERTY AND I DON'T WANT THIS TO LOOK LIKE WE ARE TRYING TO MITIGATE A CODE ENFORCEMENT PROBLEM. THAT IS NOT WHAT WE ARE DOING HERE AND I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT IS VERY CLEAR. SO THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. 
          >> I GUESS, THIS DATA HAS TO EXIST, AT THE CITY LEVEL, AND 
          [01:55:02]
THIS IS ONE OF THOSE ISSUES WE HAVEN'T HEARD A LOT OF FEEDBACK FROM THE CITY STAFF, THE PROCESS ITSELF AND OBVIOUSLY THIS IS THE FIRST TIME WE HAVE HEARD IT IN THE COMMITTEE SO WE ARE TRYING TO COLLECT THE DATA THAT WE NEED TO MAKE A REASONABLE INTERPRETATION OF WHAT THIS SHOULD BE TO IMPACT THE CITY APPROPRIATELY. NOT GETTING DATA, OR NOT HAVING THE DATA, IF WE HAVEN'T ASKED FOR IT, TO UNDERSTAND WHERE WE ARE WITH THE NUMBER OF NEIGHBORHOODS, WHAT IMPACT THIS WILL HAVE, WHICH ONES ARE OVER THIS AMOUNT AND WHICH ONES ARE NOT, HARD TO SAY, IT IS AN ISSUE IF WE DON'T HAVE IT DERIVED FROM THE DATA OF HOW YOU ACTUALLY FALL TO THE CITY. I GUESS THAT WOULD BE MY REQUEST, IF WE COULD GET THE CITY TO SHOW US WHERE WE ARE, THE NUMBER ONE QUESTION, HOW MANY PLATTED SUBDIVISIONS ARE THERE AND HOW MANY WOULD BE OVER OR UNDER, DO WE HAVE RECORDS TO THE POINT, IS THERE AN ISSUE OF MORE CALLS THAN THOSE THAT AREN'T, AND IT ALLOWS US TO MAKE A BETTER DETERMINATION. THE FLIP IS WITHOUT IT, A BLANKET FIX SEEMS TO BE THE ONLY WAY TO MITIGATE THE CONCERNS SO THAT IS A HARD GAME TO PLAY. 
          >> TO THAT POINT, THE DATA IS SO HARD TO ACTUALLY OBTAIN, SO THE INSTITUTIONAL INVESTORS, THE ONLY WAY THEY ARE ABLE TO TELL IF IT IS FIRST KEY OR OTHER LARGE INSTITUTIONAL INVESTORS IS BECAUSE THEY KNOW THE LLCS THAT THEY USE BUT IF THEY AREN'T FAMILIAR, WE HAVE NO IDEA, SO THE DATA IS NOT PERFECT AND TECHNICALLY ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO GET THE EXACT DATA WITHOUT A RENTAL, WITHOUT THE ACTUAL REGISTRATION AND OR THE SOFTWARE THAT COSTS ABOUT $46,000 PER YEAR THAT FISHERS IS USING TO DO 
          THIS. >> MIKE HALL, THE DIRECTOR OF COMMUNITY SERVICES WHO IS APPARENTLY A PART OF THIS, BUT I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT, I DON'T REALLY HAVE PREPARED REMARKS, BUT THIS IS PAINFUL TO LISTEN TO, REALLY. CODE ENFORCEMENT IS NOT DOCS, SO ALTHOUGH IN A PREVIOUS LIFE, I WAS VERY INVOLVED IN THE CODE ENFORCEMENT SIDE OF THINGS AND REALLY WONDER WHAT THE REAL PURPOSE OF HAVING IT CAPPED, I DO LOVE THE IDEA OF HAVING A REGISTRATION AND I THINK A PROPERLY THOUGHTTHROUGH AND ORGANIZED RENTAL REGISTRATION PROGRAM IN ITSELF CAN BE SOMEWHAT OF A DETERRENT, IF YOU INCLUDE LIKE AN INSPECTION PROGRAM THAT GOES ALONG WITH IT. THE CAP IS ALMOST IN ENFORCEABLE TO ME, I MEAN HOMES ARE SOLD EVERY DAY, BUT THE IDEA THAT WE ARE GOING TO GET INVOLVED IN PEOPLE'S LIVES TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE ELIGIBLE FOR EXEMPTION, I DON'T KNOW WHO HAS THAT KIND OF TIME INSIDE CITY HALL. 
          >> SO DIRECTOR, FISHERS SPENT ABOUT TWO YEARS RESEARCHING THIS AND THE SOFTWARE GATHERED THE INFORMATION TO PRODUCE THE DATA AND I HAVE HAD SOME CONVERSATIONS WITH THEM, SO THAT IS HOW, THAT IS THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN GET THE PERFECT DATA, IS THROUGH THE PROCESSES THAT THIS PROVIDER USES TO GATHER THE DATA, SO IT AGGREGATES HOMESTEAD. ALL THAT FILING. 
          >> WE HAVE THAT DATA NOW, WE USE THROUGH THE SYSTEM, WE KNOW WE HAVE PLUS OR -900 LLCS THAT DO NOT TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE HOMESTEAD AND WE KNOW WE HAVE PLUS OR MINUS 3600. SO NOW YOU ARE TELLING US THAT YOU HAVE THE DATA. 
          >> NOBODY ASKED ME, BUT THE IDEA THAT WE ARE ENFORCING THE CAP, AND GOING THROUGH AND MEETING WITH PROPERTY OWNER TO DETERMINE IF THEY ARE ELIGIBLE, THAT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE A GOOD USE OF THEIR TIME OR OUR TIME, IT SEEMS LIKE IT IS A REAL INVASION OF PRIVACY VERSUS JUST , GIVE US THE INFORMATION, WHO OWNS IT, WHO IS THE MANAGEMENT COMPANY, INSURANCE OR WHATEVER, SO THAT CODE ENFORCEMENT CAN MORE EASILY DO THEIR JOB. TO ME, THAT IS A REALLY GOOD WAY TO USE THE PROGRAM, TO MONITOR, I MEAN, 
          [02:00:06]
BELOW THE CAP OR ABOVE THE CAP, THAT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE A GOOD USE OF THE CITY'S TIME. SPEAKING FOR MYSELF BECAUSE I 
          DON'T REALLY -- >> MR. CHAIR? 
          >> THANK YOU. ONE COMMENT, A QUESTION FOR YOU, DIRECTOR, ONE COMMENT. I APPRECIATE THAT, AS IT DOES AFFECT THE CODE ENFORCEMENT THING, THE ONE ASPECT IS IF THERE IS NOT A CAP, IT LEAVES OUT THE ENTIRE ANGLE WHICH IS CREATING HOMEOWNERSHIP OPPORTUNITIES FOR PEOPLE AND I UNDERSTAND THE CODE ENFORCEMENT THING BUT, I PREFER , THEY DO A PRETTY GOOD JOB AS IT IS COMES SO THAT IS NOT A HARD JOB IN MY MIND, WE ARE BEING OUTBID BY INSTITUTIONAL INVESTORS. I REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR COMMENTS. 
          IF YOU HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH THE MAYOR, IS THIS YOUR STANCE OR IS SHE TAKING A STANCE ON THIS LEGISLATION? 
          >> WE HAVEN'T REALLY HAD A CONVERSATION, THIS IS JUST FROM MY EXPERIENCE. MY BELIEF IN HAVING A RENTAL REGISTRATION 
          PROGRAM -- >> BUT ANY CONVERSATIONS AT THE CITY LEVEL THAT IF THIS WERE PASSED, WHAT KIND OF PROCESS? 
          >> NO, SIR. >> OKAY, THANK YOU. 
          >> SO, FIRST OF ALL, I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU STANDING UP AND GIVING YOUR INPUT AND I APOLOGIZE THAT NO ONE HAD SPOKEN TO YOU ABOUT THIS BEFORE, THAT IS NEWS TO ME. THE OTHER THING THAT I THINK, BUT DON'T LEAVE, BUT THE OTHER THING THAT I WANTED TO JUST COMMENT ON IS THAT THERE WAS SOME FACTS PRESENTED BY MY BOARD WHICH IS AN INDUSTRY, IT HAS SOME EXPERTISE, SO I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW, HOW WOULD WE CONFIRM BECAUSE WHAT I HEARD THEM SAY IS YES, MAYBE THE INSTITUTIONAL THING WAS A THING AT COVID BUT NEVER HAS REALLY BEEN A THING IN CARMEL BECAUSE OF OUR PRICES SO HIGH AND AS I HAVE HEARD THIS PERCOLATE THROUGH THE PROCESS AND ALL OF A SUDDEN WE'VE GOT ONE TRYING TO OUT TRACK AND I WENT TO THE TOWN HALL MEETINGS OVER IN FISHER TO UNDERSTAND HOW THIS WAS WORKING, THEY HAVE A HUGE PROBLEM OVER THERE, IT IS -- AND I HAVE NOT EVER SENSED THAT HERE WHICH IS WHY I ASKED MY QUESTION ABOUT IF IT IS CODE ENFORCEMENT, AND THAT WAS NOT A DIG, I MEAN WE DEAL WITH CODE ENFORCEMENT BECAUSE WE HAVE TO , AND IT'S JUST VERY PROLIFIC, SOMEONE HAS ALWAYS GOT SOMETHING GOING ON SO IS IT RENTALS OR IS IT HOMEOWNERS, TO ME THAT SEEMS LIKE AN OBVIOUS FIRST THING WE WOULD WANT TO KNOW IF WE ARE PASSING AN ORDINANCE IN ORDER TO CONTROL RENTALS BECAUSE WE THINK THAT IS WHERE THE PROBLEM LIES. 
          AND OF COURSE I FORGOT WHERE I WAS GOING WITH THAT BUT, I DID WANT TO ASK, I WANTED TO GIVE YOU AN OPPORTUNITY TO SAY THIS HAS BEEN PAINFUL, WHEN SOMEBODY SAYS TO ME, I WOULD LIKE TO SAY, TELL ME MORE. SO, DO YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE SHARING WITH ME WHY 
          YOU MADE THAT STATEMENT? >> AND I DO THINK THE DATA THAT MY BOARD HAS IS GOING TO BE AS GOOD AS ANYBODY'S AND I THINK CHRIS, THAT IS WHAT THEY DO , THEIR DATA DEPARTMENT, THE BEST OF THE BEST, SO I DO THINK THERE IS A LOT MY FAMILIARITY WITH THAT, LIKE WHEN THE NPO DID THEIR HOUSING STUDY A COUPLE YEARS AGO AND THEY PRESENTED AT THE HOUSING TASK FORCE, THERE WAS A WHOLE CHAPTER IN THE REPORT ON CORPORATE OWNERSHIP AND WE WEREN'T EVEN CLOSE TO THE NUMBERS THAT FISHERS FILLED, SO THE DYNAMICS OF THAT, THAT IS KIND OF ABOVE MY PAY GRADE BUT, I THINK THE PRICE OF HOUSING IN CARMEL HAS BEEN SOMEWHAT, HAD AN EFFECT ON THAT. IT'S JUST PAINFUL NOT TO BE A PART OF THE PROCESS. I FEEL LIKE BETWEEN THE DEPARTMENT , TO BE PLACED ON POINT FOR THIS WHEN IT REALLY IS MORE OF A CODE ENFORCEMENT AND, TO ME IT IS NOT A ZONING THING OR PLANNING THING, IT REALLY IS 
          [02:05:04]
CODE ENFORCEMENT, THEY SHOULD HAVE A SEAT AT THE TABLE AND WE ARE READING ABOUT IT AND FINDING OUT ABOUT IT, WE ARE NOT REALLY INOLVED IN THE DISCUSSION WHEN YOU KNOW THAT WE WANT TO BE A PART OF THE SOLUTION. SO IT'S JUST HARD. 
          >> WELL, YES, I DIDN'T KNOW THAT WAS THE CASE AND I WILL APOLOGIZE TO YOU BECAUSE THAT IS NOT HOW WE SHOULD BE BRINGING THESE THINGS TO THE TABLE. SO, I'M GLAD TO KNOW THAT AND I'M 
          NOT HAPPY ABOUT THAT. >> I APOLOGIZE, MIKE, IT HAS BEEN SHARED WITH THE ADMINISTRATION. 
          >> I APPRECIATE THAT. I WOULD LIKE TO BE A PART OF THE 
          SOLUTION. >> THANK YOU, MY BOARD PRESENTED SOME UPDATED DATA TO US YESTERDAY, TO US YESTERDAY, THEY REQUESTED A MEETING WITH ALAN AND I. SO, WE MET WITH THEM . SO THERE WAS, LIKE IN 2013 FOR INSTANCE, THERE'S THE SAME NUMBER OF INSTITUTIONAL INVESTMENT PURCHASES AS THERE WAS IN 2021. I THINK WHAT THE ORDINANCE WAS TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH WAS NOT TO GET IN A SITUATION WHERE FISHERS IS, WITH CARMEL, I FEEL LIKE WE TRY TO BE PROACTIVE TO ADDRESS PROBLEMS, NOT WHERE THERE'S ALREADY A PROBLEM, AND I THINK THAT IS IMPORTANT FOR STAKEHOLDERS AND CITIZENS. FURTHER QUESTIONS? ANY 
          QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS? >> I WONDER IF THERE IS APPETITE TO GET MORE INFORMATION, I WOULD LOVE FOR THE CITY TO BRING ITS DATA LIKE YOU AND YOUR TEAM TO WEIGH OUT WHAT THIS LOOKS LIKE, CODE ENFORCEMENT, TOO. BUT, HOW DO WE ADDRESS THE UNDERLYING CONCERNS HERE, AND SHAPE SOMETHING THAT ACTUALLY WORKS FOR CARMEL, BECAUSE I KNOW THIS CONCEPT , OTHER PLACES AROUND THE COUNTRY, THIS IS A LARGER ISSUE. IT IS PERVASIVE, SO THE CONCEPT OF A CHANGING AND GROWING AND NEEDING TO DO THINGS ON A PATH THAT PROTECTS THE THINGS WE CARE ABOUT HERE, WITH OUR RESIDENCE AND WHAT WE HAVE, IS ALWAYS A GOOD THING TO DO. SO FIGURING OUT WHERE WE ARE AND WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE, HOW MANY PLATS THERE ARE, PLAT AND SUBDIVISIONS, THAT WOULD BE A GREAT START BUT, CAN WE BACK THAT UP AND FIGURE OUT WITH MORE CONVERSATIONS, JUST WHAT THE ACTUAL IMPACT IS BEFORE WE START TO MOVE? THAT WOULD BE MY THOUGHT HERE. 
          >> FOR THOSE QUESTIONS THAT ARE CURRENTLY OUTSTANDING RELATED TO DATA, CAN WE PROVIDE THOSE, CAN WE STATE THOSE NOW SO WE KNOW WHAT DATA THEY NEED TO PROVIDE? 
          >> HOW MANY PLATTED SUBDIVISIONS, BASED ON THE DATA THAT WE HAVE IN THE CITY, HOW MANY OF THOSE ARE SINGLE-FAMILY VERSUS MULTIFAMILY, THAT IS A BIG ISSUE, AND WHAT IS THE RENTAL DATA IN CONTEXT, TO BACK IT UP AND SEE ACROSS THE PLATFORM BUT WHAT DO WE SEE, ANY CODE ENFORCEMENT THAT SHOWS THERE IS AN ISSUE WE NEED TO ADDRESS, ARE THERE SPECIFIC PLATTED SUBDIVISIONS WHERE WE SEE A HEIGHTENED AMOUNT OF SCRUTINY, OR THOSE ONES THAT HAVE HOA'S OR NOT . WE COULD PROBABLY BUILD A PRETTY QUICK SPREADSHEET WITH THE DATA THAT WE NEED, BUT JUST UNDERSTANDING WHAT WE ARE LOOKING AT FROM CARMEL AND GLOBALLY, THE IDEA OF HOW WE HAVE SEEN OTHER COMMUNITIES TRANSITION, OR NEIGHBORHOODS TRANSITION, THERE'S OBVIOUSLY A POINT WHERE ONCE A SPECIFIC NUMBER OF HOMES GOES ABOVE THE THRESHOLD, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO CREATE NEW COVENANTS, WHEN WE START TO SEE THAT FALL, THERE'S A CASCADE EFFECT, OR POTENTIALLY MAYBE THERE IS NOT BUT DO WE HAVE ANY OTHER DATA BASED ON OUR DATA THAT SHOWS THE DYNAMIC NATURE OF THIS ISSUE AND TO YOUR POINT, BEING A PART OF THE FIX, WHAT ARE THE THINGS WE CAN DO TO MAKE SURE WE FIX THAT, IS IT REGULATING THE BEHAVIOR OF THOSE INSTITUTIONAL BUYERS THAT ARE NOW PUTTING THAT HOME ON THE MARKET FOR A 2% TAX RATE AS 
          [02:10:02]
OPPOSED TO 1% RESIDENTIAL THAT GIVES US THE ABILITY TO SAY WE SHOULD TRACK THOSE AND SEE WHERE THEY ARE TAKEN, IMPOSE FEES OR ASSESSMENTS BASED ON THE INABILITY TO TAKE CARE OF THOSE, WHO KNOWS. JUST LOOKING AT IT FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE, FEEDBACK ON WHAT WE CAN TELL FROM THE DATA THAT WE HAVE SEEMS 
          REASONABLE. >> ON THE HLA, CCR'S ARE GOING TO BE IMPOSSIBLE TO LOOK AT BECAUSE EACH HOA'S CCR'S GOING TO BE DIFFERENT. DO WE HAVE ACCESS TO ALL OF THOSE DOCUMENTS? YOU WOULD HAVE TO PULL ALL OF THAT? 
          >> THE COUNTY IS THE BEST PLACE AND WE DO TRY TO KEEP A DATABASE OF THE RESTRICTIONS, BUT WE DON'T REALLY ENFORCE COVENANTS AND RESTRICTIONS, SO I WOULD PREFER THAT WE NOT GET INTO THAT WITH THIS ORDINANCE AND JUST AFFECT WHAT THE CITY CAN AFFECT AND IN THAT WAY IT SUPPORTS THE NEIGHBORHOODS, TO TRY AND DETERMINE, WE WILL NEED AN ARMY OF PEOPLE. 
          >> THAT IS GOING TO BE HARD TO RESEARCH AND THAT IS PART OF THE PROBLEM WITH THE IMPERFECT DATA, EVEN TALKING TO MY BOARD, THEIR CHALLENGES WITH OBTAINING A LOT OF THIS DATA, SO THAT'S WHY AT LEAST FOR ME, I WAS RELYING ON THE DATA THAT THEY PROVIDED. 
          >> I WAS GOING TO YIELD TO COUNCILMEMBER JOSHI . 
          >> PART OF THIS IS WE HAVE AN ISSUE, I KNOW THAT, THE PASSION BROUGHT TO THIS, WE HAVE PEOPLE INVESTED IN THE CITY OF CARMEL AS WE ALL ARE, HOW DO WE SURGICALLY DEAL WITH THE INSTITUTIONAL BUYER WITHOUT DISADVANTAGING OTHERS WHO ARE GOING TO WANT TO JOIN OUR COMMUNITY AND BECOME OUR NEIGHBORS AND BE PART OF OUR NEIGHBORHOODS AND THOSE ARE YOUNG FAMILIES AS WELL, PEOPLE WHO COME IN, SOMETIMES START RENTING, THEY WANT TO FILL OUT AN AREA, THEY ARE CORPORATE TRANSFERS, THEY ARE YOUNG PROFESSIONALS, THEY ARE COMING IN AND TRYING TO GET INTO A COMMUNITY THAT YOU POTENTIALLY A RENTAL PROPERTY THAT THEY WOULD LIKE TO BUY WITHIN THAT COMMUNITY, AND DISADVANTAGING THEM FROM COMING IN BY PUTTING AN ARBITRARY BLUNT INSTRUMENT OF A CAP RATHER THAN A SURGICAL INSTRUMENT ON HOW WE ADDRESS THE ISSUES THAT WE ARE TRYING TO PREVENT, I THINK MIGHT BE A BETTER CRAFTING TOOL, IF WE ARE GOING TO SPEND THE TIME TO DO THIS RIGHT, TO YOUR POINT, COUNCILMEMBER TAYLOR, WE DO THINGS WELL IN THE CITY OF CARMEL AND I THINK WE LIKE TO DO THEM AHEAD OF THE CURVE BUT I THINK WE SHOULD DO THEM SURGICALLY AND NOT USING THE SAME BLUNT INSTRUMENT, MAYBE THAT SOMEONE ELSE USED TO TRY TO REALLY CRAFT A TRUE SOLUTION. THAT IS WHY I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A LITTLE MORE INFORMATION SO WE CAN MAYBE HAVE MORE DISCUSSION THAT REALLY COMES UP WITH SOMETHING AND ADDRESSES THE 
          PROBLEM. >> TED, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WANT TO ADDRESS THAT, ON DEALING WITH INSTITUTIONAL INVESTORS VERSUS OTHERS, THAT IS JUST UNFORTUNATELY NOT POSSIBLE. 
          >> I'M NOT SURE IF IT IS AN ISSUE OF THE LAW, IT IS AN ISSUE OF HOW WE KNOW, LIKE YOU SAY, HOW WE IDENTIFY THEM BY VARIOUS LLC'S, ARE THERE THINGS WE CAN DO THAT WILL NOT VIOLATE THE LAW, THAT MIGHT BE A LITTLE MORE DIFFICULT BUT MORE EFFECTIVE IN 
          THE LONG RUN? >> I THINK IT IS TREMENDOUSLY HARD BECAUSE ANYONE CAN FORM AN LLC WITH DOMESTIC AND DO NOT DISCLOSE THEIR OWNERSHIP, SO IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE TRACED, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE TRACED. AND A LOT OF THESE ARE SINGLE-MEMBER, LLCS THAT OWN ONE PROPERTY AND WE DON'T KNOW WHO THE ACTUAL OWNER IS, THERE'S NO WAY TO FIND OUT. SO AT THIS POINT, IT WAS JUST A WAY TO GET TO THAT, IF THERE'S NOT A HOMESTEAD EXEMPTION, AND IT IS A CORPORATE ENTITY, YOU HAVE TO DISCLOSE CERTAIN INFORMATION ABOUT YOUR OWNERS TO BE ABLE TO GET A PERMIT. BUT I UNDERSTAND YOUR CONCERNS. 
          >> THANK YOU MR. CHAIRMAN. SO THE QUESTION THAT WAS ASKED A FEW MINUTES AGO WAS, WHAT DO WE STILL WANT TO SEE? FOR ME, I WANT TO KNOW WHAT PROBLEM ARE WE SOLVING? WE JUST EXEMPTED AN 
          [02:15:03]
ENTIRE NEIGHBORHOOD OF RENTALS, THERE WAS A REASON THAT WE DID THAT, AND WHAT I'M LEARNING AS OLD AS I AM, THINGS CHANGE AND I THINK I'M HEARING THAT NOT EVERYBODY WANTS TO OWN A HOME. 
          AS CRAZY, FOR MY BRAIN, NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO DO THAT. SO WHAT PROBLEM ARE WE TRYING TO SOLVE, THAT IS NUMBER ONE. BUT THEN I WILL GO BACK TO MY ORIGINAL COMMENT, THE HOA HAS A PROBLEM , IF THEY AS A COMMUNITY WANTS TO GOVERN ITSELF, CANNOT GET THE VOTES BECAUSE OF SOME UNFAIR ADVANTAGE THAT RENTERS VERSUS OWNERS HAVE, AND THAT MAY BE A DISCUSSION IN AND OF ITSELF BECAUSE THAT IS THE REALITY, BUT THIS WAS MAYBE A WAY TO HELP THAT, AND IT'S THE WHOLE INSTINCT, SO I WANT TO KNOW, WHAT TYPE OF HOME, AND WHAT IS THE RELATIONSHIP TO THAT BECAUSE THAT'S THE OTHER PROBLEM I HEARD IS THAT IF YOU ARE A RENTER, YOU DON'T TAKE CARE OF YOUR PROPERTY AND I THINK THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE IN THIS COMMUNITY THAT WOULD ARGUE WITH THAT. SO I WANT TO KNOW WHAT PROBLEM ARE WE SOLVING HERE. AND IN MY FIRST COMMENT ABOUT THE RENTAL NEIGHBORHOOD, IT IS ABOUT THIS HOMEOWNERSHIP THING TO YOU COUNSELOR CARMEL , COUNCILMEMBER AASEN . AND I'M NOT GOING TO GET INTO ALL THAT, BUT I'M ALSO TOLD THAT HOMES ARE SITTING LONGER ON THE MARKET NOW THAT THE DAYS TO SAIL IS INCREASING AND THIS RUSH TO BUY IS NOT OCCURRING LIKE IT WAS. SO AGAIN, I GO BACK TO WHAT PROBLEM ARE WE 
          SOLVING? >> A COUPLE THINGS, THIS IS NOT TO STOP THE CITY FROM APPROVING BUILD TO RENT OR RENTAL COMMUNITIES, THIS IS FOR EXISTING ESTABLISHED NEIGHBORHOODS, MANY OF WHICH WERE DEVELOPED BEFORE THIS WAS EVER A THING AND THE NEIGHBORHOODS WERE NEVER INTENDED TO BECOME RENTAL NEIGHBORHOODS, THE DEVELOPER, THE PEOPLE BOUGHT, EVERYBODY INVESTED THE LARGEST ASSET, MANY PEOPLE HOLD IN THEIR LIVES WAS THEY BOUGHT IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD NEVER THINKING THAT THE NEIGHBORHOOD WOULD BECOME A RENTAL OVERWHELMINGLY A RENTAL COMMUNITY. THAT'S NUMBER ONE AND THAT IS IMPORTANT. AND THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH APARTMENTS, OR PUD'S THAT ARE APPROVED OR DEVELOPERS THAT ARE APPROVED FOR THE CITY THAT ARE PURELY RENTAL COMMUNITIES. THOSE GO THROUGH THEIR OWN PROCESS, IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE THAT MIX, THIS IS TO PROTECT EXISTING ESTABLISHED RESIDENTIAL NEIGHBORHOODS IN OUR COMMUNITY. ONE COMMUNITY, I CAN TELL YOU THAT IS OVER THE CAP AND THEY WON'T BE ABLE TO CHANGE THE CCR'S BECAUSE A FRIEND OF MINE, HIS INVESTOR FROM CALIFORNIA, ACTUALLY JUST RECENTLY MOVED LOCALLY, THE NEIGHBORHOOD IS OVER THE CAP IS ACTUALLY THE MAYOR'S NEIGHBORHOOD. SO WE KNOW THAT THERE IS A NUMBER OF NEIGHBORHOODS THAT ARE IMPACTED AS PRESENTED THIS EVENING. THE DATA IS NOT PERFECT, WHAT FISHERS DID AHEAD OF TIME AND THE COUNCIL WOULD HAVE TO BE WILLING TO DO THIS IS INVESTING IN SOFTWARE TO ACTUALLY GATHER MORE FINITE DATA IN USING THIS SOFTWARE AND SYSTEM, AND IT TOOK THEM ABOUT TWO YEARS TO DO IT. AS A 19 YEAR FINANCE EXECUTIVE WHO HAS DONE MORE MORTGAGES AND FINANCING FOR HOMES, MARKETS ARE CYCLICAL. SO WE DO UNDERSTAND AS STATED IN PUBLIC COMMENT, THAT THIS IS NOT CURRENTLY HAPPENING. THERE IS A LULL. INTEREST RATES HAVE GONE UP AND COST OF HOMES HAVE NOT INCREASED, COST OF HOMES HAVE INCREASED MORE THAN INCOMES. AND THIS IS WHERE THIS IS CREATING, IT IS A MACRO ISSUE CREATING A NATIONAL HOUSING PROBLEM BUT AGAIN, WE COULD WAIT UNTIL WE ARE FISHERS , AND TRY 
          [02:20:08]
TO SOLVE A PROBLEM WHEN IT IS DIRE, WHERE WE CAN LOOK AT DOING SOMETHING PROACTIVELY TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEM BEFORE IT ARRIVES AT 
          OUR DOORSTEP. >> I'M JUST ECHOING WHAT OTHERS HAVE SAID TO ME, THERE HAS BEEN A SUGGESTION THAT AT THE VERY LEAST, THE CITY COULD DO THE REGISTRATION IN ORDER TO GET A HANDLE , FOR MORE KNOWLEDGE ON THIS SITUATION AND IF THE  F1 SITUATION STARTS TO MOVE INTO A PERCENTAGE WHERE WE FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE, WE CAN ALWAYS INSTITUTE A CAP LATER ON AND WE WOULD HAVE BETTER KNOWLEDGE TO. I'M NOT MAKING THAT MOTION OR AMENDMENT, PEOPLE HAVE BROUGHT THAT IDEA TO ME. 
          >> I JUST WANT TO THANK YOU MR. CHAIR AND MEMBERS FOR ALLOWING US TO COME AND SIT IN ON THIS TONIGHT BECAUSE IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR ME, AND IT IS NOT ABOUT SO MUCH INVESTMENT TO ME IN THEIR NEIGHBORHOOD, IT IS ABOUT BEING ABLE TO BUY A HOME AND LIVE IN IT AND AFFORD IT AND THE EAST SIDE AND THE WEST SIDE, WE ARE UNIQUE, YOU CALL US THE LUNGS OF THE CITY. AND PROTECTING THOSE NEIGHBORHOODS IS SO IMPORTANT TO ME, I FEEL VERY STRONGLY ABOUT THAT AND I JUST WANT TO PUT IT OUT THERE, IT'S NOT JUST AN INVESTMENT IN THE COMMUNITY, IT IS THE BEDROCK OF THE AMERICAN DREAM, OWNING YOUR OWN HOME AND LIVING IN IT, AND THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE POINT OF PRIVILEGE TONIGHT, I 
          APPRECIATE YOUR TIME. >> YOU'RE WELCOME, GLAD EVERYBODY COULD BE HERE. DISCUSSIONS OR QUESTIONS? DO WE HAVE A MOTION TO ADJOURN. MOVED. 
          >> SECOND. ALL THOSE
* This transcript was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.