[Public Comment]
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A NUMBER OF CONSTITUENTS AND EMPLOYEES GOING TO START OFF THIS MEETING BY PUBLIC COMMENT. SOME GROUND RULES REAL QUICK, WE TRY TO KEEP PUBLIC COMMENT TO THREE MINUTES.
WHEN WHOEVER WOULD LIKE TO STEP UP FIRST, AND IF YOU HAD A PARTICULAR ORDER YOU WANTED TO GO IN, JUST COME UP AND PRESS THE BUTTON, IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS ALREADY PRESSED. THE RED LIGHT WILL SHOW THAT YOU ARE BEING RECORDED AND YOUR VOICE IS BEING AMPLIFIED. THE GREEN LIGHT WILL SHOW GREEN WHILE YOU HAVE YOUR THREE MINUTES. YELLOW WILL GIVE YOU A BRIEF WARNING AND THEN RED SAYS WHEN YOUR THREE MINUTES ARE UP. WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE HARD AND FAST BUT IT IS A WAY TO TRY TO GET THROUGH THE COMMENTS IN AN EFFICIENT MANNER. WHOEVER WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK FIRST, APPROACH THE PODIUM. STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD.
>> PAUL, I AM NOT A PUBLIC SPEAKER. HELLO, MY NAME IS JIM SPELLBRING, A CARMEL RESIDENT AND 45 YEAR EMPLOYEE OF THE CITY OF CARMEL. I AM SPEAKING FOR MYSELF BUT I BELIEVE THE OTHER NINE STREET WOULD AGREE. WE WERE TOLD IN A LETTER OUR DEPARTMENT WAS BEING PAID BASICALLY THE SAME AS OTHER STREET DEPARTMENTS AROUND US. TO ME THAT WAS A SLAP IN THE FACE, I AM NOT SURE EVERYBODY KNOWS WHAT WE DO. OUR DEPARTMENT DOES MORE THAN PLOW SNOW AND PAVING ROADS. I MUST SAY WE DO A GREAT JOB AT DOING BOTH. ASK OUR RESIDENT WHOSE LIVE IN CARMEL AND WORK IN MARION COUNTY. WE DO MORE INCLUDING WATERING FLOWERS, EMPTYING TRASH CANS ALL FESTIVALS, INCLUDESING SETTING UP AND TEARING DOWN THE CHRISTMAS MARKET, BUILDING HUTS, ICE RINKS, FIXING POTHOLES, PARKING GARAGES, INSTALL SIGNS AND BANNERS, FOUNTAINS AND IRRIGATIONS AND ROUNDABOUTS, STATUES, REPAIR STORM INLETS AND NATURAL DISASTERS AND MORE. THIS IS JUST A FEW OF THE THINGS WE DO, NOT EVERYTHING. WE ALSO DO OTHER JOBS FOR OTHER DEPARTMENTS, INCLUDING BUILDING OFFICES, MOVING CITY OFFICES, HANGING TVS, HANGING ARTWORK, AND MORE PROJECTS THAT ARE ASKED OF USISM WE ARE NOT EQUAL, TO ME, WE ARE ABOVE AND BEYOND. WE ARE WORKING A LOT OF HOURS WITH NO OVERTIME OPPORTUNITIES. I AM SURE ALL THE CIVILIAN EMPLOYEES FEEL THE SAME ABOUT THEIR DUTIES. WE ARE GRATEFUL TO RECEIVE COMP TIME, BUT COMP TIME DOES NOT HELP PAY THE BILLSISM ATHANK YOU FOR ALL THE TIME YOU HAVE DEVOTED TOWARDS THE BUDGET
PROCESS. >> THANK YOU, SIR. ANY OTHER PUBLIC LIKE TO COME SPEAK? I WOULD AGREE WE HAVE THEBEST STREET DEPARTMENT IN THE STATE AND IN THE NATION, SO THANK YOU FOR ALL OF WHAT YOU DO. BUT THE SPECIFICALLY THE LOSS OF ABILITY TO ACCRUE OVERTIME. IS THAT THE CORE MATTER? I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE I UNDERSTAND THAT CORRECTLY.
>> I BELIEVE SO-- >> HANG ON. YOU GOT TO-- YEAH.
>> I WANT TO MAKE SURE WE ON THE COMMITTEE FULLY UNDERSTAND.
>> YES, I BELIEVE SO. THAT IS A GOOD PART OF IT BUT THEN WE FEEL THAT THE SALARY STUDY WAS NOT ACCURATE. I DON'T KNOW WHERE THIS CAME FROM OR WHO CONDUCTED IT, BUT WE FEEL OUR DEPARTMENT DOES MORE THAN WHAT OTHERS DO AND WE ARE BEING PAID THE SAME.
THE OVERTIME, YES, IS AN ISSUE. I AM SURE IT IS WITH ALL THE OTHER CITY EMPLOYEES, THE OTHER DEPARTMENTS. SO THERE ARE NINE OF US HERE FROM THE STREET AND OTHER DEPARTMENTS, SO WE ARE JUST CONCERNED ABOUT THAT. WE KNOW THAT THERE IS A BUDGET CUT,
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BUT WE JUST WANTED TO VOICE OUR OPINION, OUR CONCERNS ON THIS, AND IF THERE IS ANY WAY THAT-- I KNOW OTHER DEPARTMENTS IN THE CITY ARE GETTING OVERTIME, WE ARE JUST WONDERING WHY CAN'T WE? WHY NOT US?WITH ALL THE HOURS THAT WE ALL ARE WORKING, NOTONLY STREET, BUT EVERYBODY. >> YEAH.
>> IT IS A CONCERN. >> YES, SIR.
>> THANK YOU. >> MR. CHAIRMAN.
>> YES, SIR. >> SO, I THINK, SO, JIM, ARE YOU PLANNING ON STAYING THROUGH THE WHOLE MEETING? AS LONG AS IT IS DONE BY 10:00. SO, BECAUSE I GUESS-- I HAVE MORE QUESTIONS FOR YOU, BUT I-- IN FAIRNESS, I NEED TO PROBABLY HEAR THE PRESENTATION BECAUSE I AM IN THE DARK ON THIS, SO PLEASE DON'T
>> I WOULD ASK THE INDULGEANCE OF THE CHAIR THAT I WOULD BE ALLOWED TO ASK QUESTIONS IF I NEED CLAIRIFICATIONS.
>> YES, OF COURSE. >> THANK YOU.
>> THANK YOU. WE WILL CLOSE PUBLIC COMMENT, THOUGH, WE WILL HAVE SOME-- YES. COME ON UP, SORRY.
>> I WASN'T GOING TO SPEAK. I AM KAREN SUTTON WITH THE CARMEL POLICE DEPARTMENT Y. AM 20-YEAR EMPLOYEE HERE , SMALL BREAK IN BETWEEN CUPCAKES, IT MAKES SENSE. TO KIND OF ECHO WHAT JIM HAD SAID, AS WELLS, I THINK KIND OF THE WAY WE FEEL WITH OUR SWORN COUNTERPARTS IS, AS WE ALL KNOW, THEY HAD THE VERY LARGE RAISE, I TYPICALLY BENEFIT, OR I DO, BECAUSE I AM MARRIED TO A FIREMAN, I AM VERY MUCH IN FAVOR AND AGREE WITH EVERYTHING THEY HAVE GOTTEN, BUT I THINK WE ALL NEED TO BE RAISED UP AS WELL, THE WAY WE KIND OF THINK ABOUT IT IN OUR DIVISION, SPECIFICALLY, IS WE ARE THE SAFEST CITY IN THE STATE, REALLY, WE ARE CONSTANTLY RANKED NUMBER ONE, THROUGHOUT THE NATION. OUR POLICE AND FIRE AREN'T DIRECTLY PAID BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY MAY OR MAY NOT EXPERIENCE, WE ARE ALL PAID BECAUSE OF OUR PROFESSIONALES AND TRAINING, WHAT WE HAVE TO DO TO GO OUT AND DO THE JOB VENLT WE, SPECIFICALLY, SCSIS HAVE ALREADY HAD OUR COMPENSATION DIRECTLY IN LINE WITH OUR SURGEONS AND HAVE SEEN A VAST DIFFERENCE, AS YOU ALL KNOW, WE GO OUT AND SEE THE WORST OF THE WORST, WALK THROUGH THE WORST OF THE WORST, TAKE IT BACK TO OUR HOMES. I JUST SPENT EIGHT HOURS AT 19TH AND 10TH LAST WEEKEND, EXCUSE ME, LAST WEEK, WHERE SOMEBODY WAS MURDERED IN JULY, AND I DIDN'T SEE LOT OF MY COUNTERPARTS THERE, BUT I AM NOT PAID TO THE SAME LEVEL. I THINK THAT IS WHERE WE ARE AND WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT, WE ALL WORK FOR THE CITY, WE ALL ARE EXPECTED. WHEN YOU GET HIRED HERE, YOU ARE TOLD WE ARE CARMEL, AND WE ARE PROUD TO BE CARMEL, AND WE ARE GOING TO RAISE YOU UP TO THIS CARMEL STANDARD, BUT WE ARE NOT SEEING THAT BACK TO US. WE ARE THE HIGHEST, THE HIGHEST TRAINED, WE LOVE THE JOB THAT WE DO, BUT WE ARE NOT SEEING THAT
>> QUESTION NOW, OR LATER? >> I HAD A FOLLOW-UP QUESTION
>> WHICH DEPARTMENTS RECEIVE OVERTIME? WHICH DON'T?
>> UM, SO, WITH REGARDS TO FIRE DEPARTMENT, THAT IS OBVIOUSLY OUR BIGGEST USER OF OVERTIME BECAUSE OF THE MANDATORY STAFFING RATIOS, SO WE ACCRUE A TON OF OVERTIME AT THE FIRE DEPARTMENT, WE ARE ON TRACK TO SPEND CLOSE TO $5 MILLION ON OVERPEN TIME THERE. THAT IS WHY WE MADE THE SIGNIFICANT INVESTMENT IN THE BUDGET TO TRAIN MORE, NEW RECRUITS AND LATERAL RECRUITS SO WE CAN GET THE OVERTIME DOWN, BUT THERE IS A LARGE NUMBER OF, NOT ONLY SCHEDULED MANDATORY OVERTIME, BUT ALSO PEOPLE PICKING UP SHIFTS TO GET THAT, COVER MINIMUM STAFFING REQUIREMENTS. CPD HAS SOME MANDATORY OVERTIME AS WELL, BUT NOT NEARLY THE SAME AMOUNTS. IN REGARDS TO OTHER DEPARTMENTS, WE ARE TRYING TO DO OUR BEST TO MANAGE THOSE EXPENSES DOWN, JUST TO SAVE DOLLARS SO WE CAN BUY DOWN EXPENSES FOR NEXT YEAR, WHEN AT ALL POSSIBLE.
>> SO, IS IT JUST POLICE AND FIRE? I KNOW WE JUST HEARD BROOKSHIRE HAD OVERTIME REDUCED BUT NOT ELIMINATED. OTHER DEPARTMENTS DO HAVE OVERTIME PAID OUT, RIGHT?
>> YEAH, WITH REGARDS TO BROOKSHIRE, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU KNOW THIS BETTER, THERE IS ONE EMPLOYEE THERE AND THEY HAVE
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DIFFERENT LAWS ON FSLA AND HOW THEY ACCRUE OVERTIME AT PUBLIC GOLF COURSES, THERE IS SOMETHING SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT THERE BUT ITIS ONE EMPLOYEE. >> BESIDES THAT ONE EMPLOYEE, BESIDES POLICE AND FIRE, THERE IS NO ONE ELSE GETTING PAID
OVERTIME IN THE CITY? >> I CAN'T SAY FOR SURE THERE NONE BUT WE DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO MANAGE IT TO AS CLOSE TO ZERO
AS POSSIBLE. >> IS THERE OVERTIME IN THE BUDGET? THEY WERE SAYING OTHER DEPARTMENTS WERE GETTING OVERTIME. I WAS WONDERING WHICH THEY MIGHT BE.
>> BUT WE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO MANAGE IT DOWN AT ALL
>> MAYBE SOME CLARITY FROM THE PRESENTATION, BEFORE WE GO INTO
[a. Ordinance D-2779-25; An Ordinance of the Common Council of the City of Carmel, Indiana, Fixing Salaries of Appointed Officers and Employees of the City of Carmel, for the Year 2025; Sponsor: Councilor Taylor. ]
>> I AM GOING TO TURN MOST OF THIS OVER TO THE HR DEPARTMENT TO TALK THROUGH THE PRESENTATION TODAY. I WILL PROBABLY JUMP BACK IN WITH FISCAL IMPACT SLIDE AT THE END, BUT OTHERWISE I WILL TURN IT OVER TO NICOLE AND CHRISTY.
>> THANK YOU. >> SINCE I KNOW YOU ARE COMPLETELY IN THE DARK, I AM GOING TO PRETEND I AM TALKING JUST TO YOU, BECAUSE I THINK SOME OF YOU UP HERE HAVE BITS AND PIECES. I AM GLAD SOMEBODY THAT KNOWS NOTHING-- I WILL TALK LIKE THIS IS COMPLETELY NEW INFORMATION. THIS SALARY STUDY KICKED OFF IN 2024, AND I WOULD IMAGINE, I DON'T KNOW THIS FOR SURE, MOST OF THE SCOPING TOOK PLACE IN 2023 AS THE DOLLARS WERE APPROPRIATED IN THE 2024 BUDGET. BEFORE I WAS HERE WITH FORMER DIRECTOR HERE, DID KICKOFF, AND THEY CONTRACTED WITH A COMPANY CALLED NFP. INITIAL DATA WAS USED IN 2025 FOR THE SWORN POSITIONS. THAT WAS WHAT--
>> WHEN WAS THAT CONTRACT EXECUTED WITH MFP?
>> 2024. WE HAD A PO THAT, NO COSTS WERE ALLOCATED TO IN 2024, IT ROLLED OVER AND WE PAID FOR SOME OF THAT PO IN 2025.
>> WHAT WE ARE SORT OF DUBBING PHASE ONE, THEY USED THAT INFORMATION TO HELP CREATE THE MATRIX AND USE THAT IN THE UNION NEGOTIATIONS PIECE. SO, PHASE TWO, AS IT WAS SUPPOSED TO INITIALLY DETERMINE WAS NFP WAS GOING TO TAKE JOB DESCRIPTIONS AND THEN DO THE SAME ANALYSIS FOR SIMILAR POSITIONS AND IT WAS DETERMINED JOB DESCRIPTIONS WEREN'T UP TO DATE. THAT IS VERY COMMON, IT IS DIFFICULT TO KEEP UP TO DATE. GARBAGE IN, GARBAGE OUT. WE KNEW THOSE JOB DESCRIPTIONS WEREN'T GOING TO BE-- DIDN'T ACCURATELY REFLECT WHAT OUR PEOPLE DO. WE SORT OF PAUSED, I CAME ON BOARD, AND DECIDED, WHAT DO WE WANT TO DO? WE DIDN'T WANT TO GIVE THE JOB DESCRIPTIONS AND KEEP GOING WITH THAT. WE PAUSED AND CHANGED THE SCOPE. BECAUSE THE SCOPE CHANGED SO MUCH, WE DID NOT FINISH THE WORK WITH NFP, WE USED THE DATA THEY HAD DONE AND DECIDED WE NEEDED TO START OVER WITH THE JAQ PROCESS, WHICH IS, WE PUT TOGETHER A TIMELINE TO HELP Y'ALL UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED IN 2025. WE ANNOUNCED IN, I THINK NOVEMBER, I THINK NOVEMBER, DOESN'T MATTER. 2024, THAT WE WOULD BE STARTING THE SALARY STUDY IN FIRST QUARTER, 2025. PICKING UP PHASE TWO. IN FEBRUARY WE SENT AN E-MAIL TO ALL FULL-TIME CIVILIAN EMPLOYEES AND EXPLAINED HOW THE JAQ PROCESS WAS GOING TO WORK. I WANT TO TAKE A MINUTE AND THANK EVERYBODY FOR THE HARD WORK ON THAT. THAT WAS NOT A GOOD TIME FOR ANYBODY, THEY PUT IN A LOT OF TIME AND EFFORT, AND IT WAS REALLY REFLECTED AND HOW THOROUGH. THANK YOU FOR ALL OF THAT INFORMATION, MADE OUR JOBS A LITTLE EASIER. WE HAD PEOPLE THAT NEEDED AN EXTENSION FOR VARIOUS REASONS, A FOLLOW-UP, WE HAD TO HAVE THEM BACK BY MARCH 21ST. FROM THERE, WE DUG IN ELBOWS DEEP IN JAQS, WE WERE, I SAY WE, BUT IT WAS MOSTLY
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CHRISTY, 300 PLUS JAQS, LOT WENT INTO THAT. AS WE WERE READING THROUGH, THAT IS WHEN WE WENT TO EMPLOYEES IF WE HAD QUESTIONS, MET WITH DEPARTMENT HEADS TO GET THEIR TAKE AND INSIGHT. WE DIDN'T HAVE AS MUCH OF THAT AS WE ANTICIPATED INITIALLY. MID APRIL THROUGH EARLY MAY, WE BROUGHT THE DEPARTMENT HEADS INTO DISCUSS HOW WE SAW THE TITLES CHANGING, AND THAT WAS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THEM TO COMMUNICATE WITH US IF THEY NEEDED POSITIONS THAT DIDN'T CURRENTLY EXIST TODAY. SOME DEPARTMENT HEADS PLANS TO DO EVEN SMALL REORGANIZATIONS AND THOSE TITLES DIDN'T EXIST IN THE SALARY ORDINANCE TODAY. IT GAVE US A CHANCE TO BENCHMARK POSITIONS WE DON'T CURRENTLY HAVE, WHICH HAPPENED MID MAY TO EARLY JUNE AS WE DID USE DATA AND BENCHMARKED OUR CURRENT POSITIONS FULL-TIME CIVILIAN, IT HAPPENED BEFORE THIS PROCESS. EARLY JUNE THROUGH LATE JUNE, WE PUT TOGETHER OUR RECOMMENDATIONS FOR WHAT WE WANTED TO SEE GOING FORWARD FROM TITLE CHANGES AND LATER ON WE WILL GET INTO COMP STRUCTURE CHANGES. WE HAD A MEETING ON JULY 21ST WITH A FEW COUNCILMEMBERS TO GIVE THEM A BRIEF OVERVIEW OF RECOMMENDATIONS, AND THEN ON AUGUST 8TH, WE SENT A LETTER TO EMPLOYEES TELLING THEM WHAT WE WANTED TO HAPPEN, IN SUBJECT TO COUNCIL APPROVAL, THE LETTER THAT CAME OUT. LOOKED AT JAQ AND ALL THE DATA, THIS IS OUR ASSESSMENT OF WHAT WE CURRENTLY WILL SEE TODAY. THE GOOD NEWS IS CARMEL PAYS COMPETITIVE SALARIES. I WORKED IT IS HARD TO ATTRACT AND RETAIN SUPERIOR EMPLOYEES, WE ARE ALREADY HITTING THE MARK ON THAT.HOWEVER, TEAM MEMBERS ARE MAXED OUT REALLY QUICKLY, SO AFTER FIVE YEARS, THEY MAX OUT ON OUR CURRENT STEP-IN GRADE SYSTEM AND WE DO NOT HAVE A LOT OF FLEXIBILITY OR BAND WIDTH TO KEEP REWARDING EMPLOYEES FOR PERFORMANCE AFTER YEAR FIVE, EXCEPT LONGEVITY PAY INCREASES, AND ALSO COLA WE DECIDE TO GIVE.
WE HAVE NO WAY TO AWARD PERFORMANCE OTHER THAN PROMOTION, NOT THAT PROMOTION ISN'T SOMETIMES NECESSARY, BUT IT IS RIGID AND THE ONLY METHOD WE HAVE. IF SOMEBODY WERE TO GET CERTIFICATION AND WE WANTED TO INCREASE SALARY, TODAY WE HAVE NO WAY DO THAT. WHAT HAPPENS, IT IS A VERY RIGID STRUCTURE, THERE IS SYSTEMIC USE OF THE JOB CLASSIFICATION, WHAT I IMAGINE THE ORIGINAL TENT WAS WITH GRADES, THE JOBS FALL ON GRADES BUT THE ONLY WAY TO PROMOTE SOMEBODY OR PAY THEM MORE FOR A JOB WELL DONE IS TO MOVE THEM OUT OF THE GRADE, WHICH DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF THE GRADE SYSTEM IN THE FIRST PLACE. BECAUSE THERE WAS NO SET RULES, MAYBE INITIALLY BUT IN RECENT YEARS NO SET RULES HOW YOU WORK THROUGH THE STEP SYSTEM, IT WAS AUTOMATIC INCREASES FROM STEP ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR, AUTOMATIC, SO AFTER YEAR FIVE YOU MAXED OUT, BUT YOU GOT, ESSENTIALLY BETWEEN THE STEPS, 4% ANNUALLY, PLUS THE COLA, 3% COLA YEAR THAT COULD BE AS MUCH AS 7% INCREASE WITHOUT REAL STRUCTURE, PERFORMANCE EVALUATION BUILT IN, AUTOMATIC.
ALSO, FOR NEW HIRES, THERE IS REALLY NO WAY TO NEGOTIATE STARTING SALARY, AND EACH NEW HIRE, ESPECIALLY FOR PROFESSIONAL LEVEL POSITIONS, SOMETIMES NEGOTIATION NEEDS TO HAPPEN, WITH THE RIGID SYSTEM AND THEN THERE IS ONLY 20% SALARY RANGE, IT IS HARD TO NEGOTIATE STARTING SALARY. OKAY.
I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA TO WALK THROUGH MAYBE AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT OUR CURRENT SYSTEM PROVIDES TO EMPLOYEES.
BECAUSE MAY MAX OUT AFTER FIVE YEARS EXCEPT FOR LONGEVITY AND COLAS, I WANTED TO SHOW THREE EMPLOYEES ALL GRADE TEN AND LOOK AT WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE FOR THREE DIFFERENT TYPES OF EMPLOY EASE. IF EMPLOYEE A IS JUST HIRED, THEY START GRADE 10, STEP 1, WE DON'T AUTOMATICALLY START STEP 1, BUT FOR THIS EXAMPLE STEP 1, OUR CURRENT STEPPING GRADE HAS THAT SALARY ALMOST $66,000. EMPLOYEE B HAS BEEN SAME GRADE POSITION FIVE YEARS BUT ARE ALREADY AT THE END, THEY ARE NOW $79,000. IN FIVE YEARS
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WITHOUT SYSTEMS BUILT IN WHY THEY MOVED UP THAT FAST, THEY ARE $79 VERSES STARTING WAGE $66. THEY MAXED OUT FAST, GREAT, ALSO WHEN NO WHERE TO GO AFTER THAT. EMPLOYEE C, SIMILAR POSITION 15 YEARS, THEY ARE NOW AT THE SAME SALARY AS SOMEBODY WHO HAS ONLY BEEN DOING IT FIVE YEARS AND I IMAGINE-- YES.>> IS THIS A REAL EXAMPLE? >> I WOULD IMAGINE WE HAVE THIS.
>> WHAT ABOUT, WHERE ARE THE COLAS FOR THE 15 YEARS?
>> THE COLAS ARE BUILT INTO THE STEPS, AS THEY OCCUR. IF I AM SOMEBODY, LETS SAY HYPOTHETICALLY I AM EMPLOYEE A, CURRENTLY AT $65, 969, AS I PROGRESS INTO NEXT CALENDAR YEAR, I WOULD GET THE 4% INCREASE FOR THE STEP INCREASE, AND THE 3% INCREASE AS FAR AS THE COLA, SO B AND C, THEY STARTED STEP ONE, BUT BASICALLY EVERY YEAR GOT 7% INCREASE. SO NOT ONLY ARE THE STEPS HIGHER EACH YEAR BUT THE STEPS GROW EACH YEAR BECAUSE AS THE COLA GOES UP, THE STEPS EACH GO UP 3%
EACH TIME. >> THE SALARY ITSELF IS THE GROWTH OF THE SALARY, CHANGE IN NUM BER PER YEAR WITH COLA ADDITION INCREASES THE SALARY. IF YOU ARE ALREADY STEP 6, THE ONLY THING YOU WOULD SEE YEAR AFTER YEAR, LETS SAY EMPLOYEE B AND C, WHAT IS DIFFERENT FOR THEM? AFTER JANUARY 1ST NEXT YEAR, THEY WOULD BOTH SEE A 3%, SAME 3% INCREASE FROM 25 TO 26.
>> WE DON'T KEEP THE NUMBERS THE SAME ON STEPPING GRADE THASHGS CHANGE EVERY YEAR BUT PEOPLE, THAT CHANGE HAPPENS FOR
EVERYBODY GRADE 6. >> I WILL LOOK AT THE DATA.
>> EVERYBODY AT THE MAX GROWS BY THE COLA AMOUNT, THE NEW MAX.
>> SO, THERE WOULD BE SOME SALARY DIFFERENCES AS MENTIONED, WITH LONGEVITY INCREASES, $3,000 DIFFERENCE IN SALARY FOR EMPLOYEE B AND C. THIS, DHURNT SALARY DOESN'T GIVE WIDE RANGE OF SALARIES TO OFFER PEOPLE, THEY CAP OUT FAST AND THEN THEY ARE STUCK THERE. YOU CAN CHANGE IT. WE WOULD LIKE TO REPLACE THE STEPPING GRADE SYSTEM WITH MORE MODERN SALARY STRUCTURE, JUST TO ALLOW US MORE FLEXIBILITY SO WE CAN MORE READILY ADDRESS ISSUES, EXAMPLE WE USE THROUGHOUT THIS PROCESS IS IF SOMEBODY TAKES ON ADDITIONAL WORK, IF SOMEBODY IS OUT TEMPORARILY, OR THERE IS A VACANCY AND THE WORK NEEDS TO BE DISTRIBUTED AMONG THE TEAM, TODAY WE HAVE NO WAY OF COMPENSATING THEM EXTRA FOR EXTRA WORK. AS I MENTIONED TO CERTIFICATIONS, EDUCATION, ANY OF THOSE THINGS THAT HAPPEN, WE CAN'T ADJUST TO MEET THOSE IMPROVEMENTS FOR OUR EMPLOYEESISM WE WOULD LIKE TO WIDEN OUR EXISTING PAY STRUCTURES SO THEY DON'T MAX OUT FAST. THERE IS MORE ROOM TO KEEP GROWING AS LONG AS THEY STAY EMPLOYED HERE. WE HAVE UPDATE SYSTEM JOB TITLES TO PERFORMING AND TO MATCH SOME OF OUR EMPLOYEES, LIKE THE INDUSTRY THEY ARE WORKING IN, SOME TITLES ARE REALLY SPECIFIC AND SO WE ARE RECOMMENDING CHANGES TO A FEW OF THOSE TITLES. WE WOULD LIKE TO BEGIN EXPLORING OPTIONS FOR NEW PERFORMANCE MANAGEM TOOL, WE DO NOT USE ONE TODAY. THAT WOULD BE A GREAT WAY TO RECOGNIZE TOP PERFORMERS AND PROVIDE FORMAL FEEDBACK TO ALL EMPLOYEES. THEN WE HAVE VERY FEW RULES, IF ANY, AROUND HOW THIS ALL WORKS TODAY, WHY PEOPLE WOULD MOVE THROUGH THE STEP SYSTEM. SO WE WOULD RECOMMEND DEVELOPING POLICIES THAT SUPPORT THE NEW SYSTEM, HOW YOU WOULD MOVE UP, HOW YOU WOULD-- AND THEN, WORK CLOSELY WITH HR AND FINANCE SO WE CAN CONTINUALLY USE UPDATED MARKET DATA. OUR PAY BANS DON'T GET OUT DATED SO WE CAN HAVE MORE OF A DIALOGUE WHEN WE HAVE A NEW HIRE AND MAKE SURE WE ARE PERFECTLY PAYING OUR EMPLOYEES. HERE IS THE EXAMPLE OF WHAT OUR EXISTING PAY GRADES LOOK LIKE, IF WE LOOK AT GRADE 10, THE EXAMPLE WE JUST USED, STEP ONE, 65, ALMOST $66,000.
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STEP SIX IS $79. IF WE TAKE THAT SAME GRADE AND LOOK AT WHAT RECOMMENDATIONS ARE, SWITCH THAT. WE ARE SUGGESTING WE LOWER THE MINIMUM AND INCREASE THE MAXIMUM, IS IT 10%? YOU CAN SEE $59, MAXIMUM $86MENT WE ARE NOT SUGGESTING ANY OF OUR CURRENT EMPLOYEES NOW MOVE DOWN OR RECEIVE LESS MONEY. WE ARE SUGGESTING THAT IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES, IT MAY MAKE SENSE TO START A NEW HIRE CLOSER TO THE MINIMUM. THE GOAL TO GET MOST OF OUR EMPLOYEES AT MID POINT, MID POINT IS WHERE YOU ARE REALLY CELL TRAINED, YOU KNOW YOUR JOB REALLY WELL, YOU ARE WORKING INDEPENDENTLY, A HIGH PERFORMER, MOST PEOPLE, AS EVEN IF WE PLOTTED OUR SALARIES TODAY, WE WOULD LIKE OO SEE THAT MORE LIKE A BELL CURVE. WE COULD, IF SOMEBODY IS HERE-- WE HAVE 40 EMPLOYEES WE COULD OFFER THEM A BIGGER PAY BAND.>> I PULLED UP THE SALARY SPREADSHEET, EVERYBODY'S SALARIES WE GOT EARLIER THIS YEAR, NOBODY HAS THE SAME SALARY, THE LOST OF LIVING INCREASE AS WELL, BACK TO THE SLIDE, ARBITARY CALCULATION, WHEN YOU HIT THE CAP, YOU STILL RECEIVED INCREASE BASED ON LONGEVITY, NOT ACASE OF LIVING, IT IS A SMALLER AMOUNT BUT IT DOES CREATE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A
FIVE-YEAR AND 15--- >> WE HAVE TECHNICAL PAY, WE HAVE DIFFERENT, IN OUR SALARY ORDINANCE, DIFFERENT WAYS PEOPLE WOULD EARN DIFFERENT WAGES. BUT, YES, TO YOUR POINT, IT WOULD BE MOSTLY FROM A LONGEVITY DIFFERENCE, BECAUSE THAT IS
BASED ON YOUR YEARS OF SERVICE. >> OKAY.
>> WHEN THEY ARE AT THE CAP, THEN THEY WOULD GET THE 3% COST OF LIVING ADJUSTMENT PLUS THE $600 PER YEAR LONGEVITY PAY
PAYMENT? CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT. >> $250 A YEAR FOR THE FIRST TEN YEARS AND THEN JUMPS TO-- I WILL LET THEM GET THIS RIGHT, BUT STARTS $250 A YEAR AND CERTAIN POINT JUMPS TO I THINK $310 PER YEAR. $310 AT YEAR 11. MAXES OUT AT YEAR 20 OR 25.
>> YOU WANT TO FINISH YOUR PRESENTATION ON THE LAST SLIDE?
>> WAITING FOR ZACH TO GET OUR PRESENTATION GOING HERE.
>> ALL RIGHT. JUST REGARDING THE FISCAL IMPACT OF THE PROPOSAL, AGAIN, THERE ARE MOVING PARTS HERE. LET ME EXPLAIN WHAT IS NOT IN HERE. THIS DOES NOT-- THE FISCAL IMPACT OF THE COLA DOES NOT. THE FISCAL IMPACT OF STEP INCREASES OCCUR BASICALLY JANUARY 1 IS NOT IN HERE. I WILL SKIP FISCAL 5 DOES NOT DEPENDS ON IF AND WHEN COUNCIL ADOPTS THIS. SO LETS TALK ABOUT THE ANNUALIZED FISCAL IMPACT FOR 2026. WE HAVE EIGHT FOLKS MOVING UP, AT LEAST ONE GRADE, THE COSTS HAVE BEEN BUILT INTO THE BUDGET REQUEST FOR NEXT YEAR BUT IT IS ESSENTIALLY $80,000 IS THE FISCAL IMPACT OF THOSE FOLKS THAT AREER MOVING UP A GRADEISM THAT INCLUDES THE BASE SALARY, FICA, MEDICARE DISABILITY, AND PERF, THOSE NUM BERS COUNT FOR 24-25% WHILE THE REST OF THAT TOTAL IS PURELY SALARY. LOOKING BEYOND 2027, IT REALLY DEPENDS UPON HOW THIS IS IMPLEMENTED BEYOND THAT, WHAT PERFORMANCE MANAGEMENT LOOKS LIKE BEYOND THAT. SO, AS WE ARE RECOMMENDING TO DO AWAY WITH THE STEP SYSTEM AFTER WE DO THIS NEXT ROUND OF
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STEP INCREASES, AFTER THAT WE WOULD AVOID A-- THE FISCAL IMPACT OF THE 2027 STEP INCREASES, SO WE HAVE CALCULATED THAT BY BASICALLY SAYING TODAY THERE ARE 30%, LET ME TAKE THAT BACK, TODAY THERE ARE 55% OF OUR EMPLOYEES, CIVILIAN EMPLOYEES ARE MAXED OUT ON THE CURRENT STEPPING GRADE SYSTEM. AFTER THIS NEXT ROUND OF STEP INCREASES WE WILL HAVE 70% MAXED OUT. WHAT WE HAVE DONE IS BASICALLY SAID THE REMAINING 30%, THAT STEP INCREASE NOT OCCURRING IN 2027, WHAT WOULD THAT BE WORTH? THAT IS $318,000. THAT WOULD BE A COST AVOIDANCE, BUT I CAN'T SAY FOR SURE AT THIS POINT IN TIME WOULD WE NECESSARILY SAVE THAT MUCH? OR SPEND MORE THAN THAT? IT DEPEND UPON HOW WE IMPLEMENT HOW WE IMPLEMENT PERFORMANCE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM, PERFORMANCE EVALUATIONS AS WELL AS WHAT OTHER TYPE OF THINGS WE DO IN TERMS OF, AS NICOLE WAS MENTIONING, WE HAVE TAKEN ON ADDITIONAL WORK OR GOTTEN ADDITIONAL CERTIFICATION, NOW WE CAN REWARD YOU FOR THAT IN WAYS THAT WE CAN'T CURRENTLY. OUR NEXT SLIDE IS SIMLY QUESTIONS SLIDE, SO-->> I WANTED TO MAKE A STATEMENT AND THEN A QUESTION. SO, CARMEL CLAY PARKS FACE A LOT OF PRESSURE FROM OUR FISCAL BODIES FROM THE TOWNSHIP AND THE COUNCIL AT THE TIME WHEN I WAS PRESIDENT OF MEETING A HUNDRED PERCENT COST RECOVERY IN ON COMMUNITY CENTER AND HIGH COST RECOVERY FOR IT HAD DEPARTMENT AS A WHOLE. THOSE AREAS OF CARMEL CLAY PARKS ARE LITERALLY OPERATE AS A BUSINESS. NOW THEY DID HAVE TO MAKE A NUMBER OF CHANGES RELATED TO AUTOMATIC STEP INCREASES AND LONGEVITY PAY AT THAT TIME, I BELIEVE 2016, SO WHEN YOU WERE LOOKING AT THESE ISSUES, DID YOU HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH MICHAEL AND HIS DEPARTMENT ABOUT THINGS, STRATEGIES THEY USED TO WORK WITH THE STAFF AND TO GAIN BUY IN, AND TO LOOK AT HOW TO
ADDRESS THESE TYPE OF CHANGES? >> I HAVE WORKED WITH, AND REACHED OUT FOR INFORMATION REGARDING THEIR PERFORMANCE EVALUATION PROCESS, AND HAVE PLANS TO MEET WITH ONE OF THEIR EMPLOYEES WHO LEADS THAT PROCESS TO, I THINK IT IS GOING REALLY WELL FOR THEM. THAT IS HOW I WORKED WITH PARK, BUT I DON'T KNOW, ZACH, DID YOU TALK TO HIM ABOUT THE BUDGET PIECE?
>> ONLY FROM THE STANDPOINT, AS WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE RESULTS AND SEEING THE RESTRICTIONS THAT THE CURRENT STEPPING GRADE SYSTEM IMPOSES, MICHAEL MENTIONED, YEAH, THEY MOVED AWAY FROM AUTOMATIC STEPPING GRADE YEARS AGO.
>> THE LAST QUESTION, AS CHAIR I WILL STOP ASKING QUESTIONS. NBV, RIGHT NOW, THOUGH DECREASED FROM $600,0002026 TO $350,000, YOU STILL SHOW AVAILABLE OVERTIME FOR THE STREET DEPARTMENT. IS IT THE POSITION THAT WE ARE JUST GOING TO BUDGET IT, BUT NOT
ALLOW IT? >> OUR POSITION IS BASICALLY LETS WHAT WE CAN TO MINIMIZE THE AMOUNT OF OVERTIME, SO IF PEOPLE WORK OVERTIME, THERE ARE OPPORTUNITIES TO FLEX TIME, TO USE THAT AS COMP TIME, AND THAT WOULD BE THE FIRST OPTION. THERE ARE TIMES THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE AT ALL. BUT WE ARE DOING A NUMBER OF THINGS TO MINIMIZE OVERTIME SPENDING.
>> QUESTIONS FROM THE COMMITTEE? >>
>> SO, TO START, I WOULD LOVE TO JUST KIND OF GO BACK TO THE BEGINNING, LIKE OF ALL OF THIS, YOU KIND OF WENT THROUGH HOW WE GOT HERE, WHAT IT WAS, I HAVE A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT THE SHAPE OF HIRING NFP, $80 THOUSAND, GETTING THROUGH THE FIRST PROCESS OF MATRIX AND THEN DECIDING NOT TO DO IT ANYMORE.
ANOTHER SYSTEM, THEY CHANGED THE BEHAVIOR OF THE SALARY STUDY, TOOK OUT THE THIRD PARTY, KIND OF DOES THIS PROFESSIONALLY, AND I DON'T SAY YOU DON'T DO THIS PROFESSIONALLY, I FULLY RESPECT
[00:35:02]
HR AND WHAT YOU GUYS DO. IT IS ONE OF THE HARDEST THINGS THERE IS. THE CONCEPT HERE WE SHIFTED FOR SOMETHING WE WENT ALL IN ON FOR OUR SWORN, AND GOT TO AN END RESULT THAT THE CITY AND THOSE OFFICERS AND FIREFIGHTERS AGREED ON, IS QUESTIONABLE TO ME. I DO, I WANT TO PREFACE THAT WITH THE CONCEPT HERE, THAT THE LAST SLIDE HERE ON THE FINANCIAL IMPACT SAYS THAT ALL OF THIS, IN THERY AND IF FROM FINANCIAL PERSPECTIVE, ALL OF THIS WORK, CONSTERNATION, REWRITE OF PEOPLE'S SALARIES AND MAKING THEM GO THROUGH THIS PROCESS ENDS WITH FINANCIAL IMPACT, TWO YEARS FROM NOW, THAT, IN THEORY, WE CAN FIGURE A WAY TO SAVE THAT FROM OTHER THINGS TO MAKE SURE THIS CONTINUES. I SAY THAT, I JUST WANT TO GO BACK TO THE BEGINNING OF ARE WE HERE? WHO DO WE HAVE THIS MASSIVE DRAMATIC CHANGE WITHOUT A THIRD-PARTY HELP VALIDATING IT? WHY ARE WE TRYING TO VOTE ON THIS GOINGINTO THIS BUDGET CYCLE? >> YEAH, I THINK I COULD ADDRESS MOST OF THOSE. SO, FIRST OF ALL, WITH REGARDS TO THAT CONTRACTOR'S WORK ON SWORN, THEY DID PROVIDE SOME VALUE, BUT I WILL SAY THEIR DATA WAS STALE. WE STILL HAD TO GO OUT SEPARATE FROM THEM AND GET MORE REAL-TIME DATA AS THEY WERE LOOKING AT POLICE AND FIRE CONTRACTS THAT WERE ALREADY TWO YEARS OLD AND NOT CONSIDERING, BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE ACCESS TO MORE REALTIME INFORMATION, WHEN IT CAME TO ULTIMATELY MOVING AWAY FROM THAT CONTRACTOR, AND NICOLE MENTIONED KIND OF THE GARBAGE IN, GARBAGE OUT CONCERN. I THINK THIS IS A REALLY GOOD EXAMPLE, ONE THAT MAKES SENSE FOR ME, BUT PAIGE THAT WORKS AT HR THAT DOES PAYROLL. DOES ANYBODY KNOW WHETHER HER TITLE IS PAYROLL
ANALYST, OR PAYROLL MANAGER? >> I DON'T CARE IF PAIGE LIKES
HER TITLE. >> MY POINT IS THAT WHENEVER IT MATTERS FROM THE STANDPOINT OF WHEN WE GO OUT TO COMPARE HER TO MARKET, THERE IS AN IMPLIED DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN ANALYST
AND MANAGER. >> YEAH, SO THAT, I THINK THAT GETS TO THE HEART OF THE INITIAL, THE CONCEPT OF COMPARING THIS TO MARKET. I WANT TO REITERATE TO STAFF AND SPECIFICALLY THE GENTLEMAN WHO SPOKE EARLIER, THIS IS CARMEL, IT IS AWESOME, IT IS THE NUMBER ONE OR NUMBER TWO CITY IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND YEAR AFTER YEAR BECAUSE OF THE LABOR AND THE PEOPLE THAT ARE HERE. I DO STRUGGLE WITH THE CONCEPT OF LOOKING AT MARKET TO COMPARE, SPECIFICALLY WITH ALL THE EXTERNALITIES WE HAVE SEEN. I WANT TO GET INTO THOSE, AS WE TALK THE INTENT OF THE DATA SET WAS, I WANT TO CIRCLE BACK TO THE CONCEPT FROM WHAT YOU PRESENTED TONIGHT, THE ONLY FINANCIAL EXTERNALITY IS THAT WE HAVE STOPPED A BUMP AND GRADE FOR POTENTIALLY 30% OF PEOPLE THAT MAY STAY INTO 2027, MAY NOT BECAUSE WE ARE CHANGING THE WAY THEY ARE BEING COMPENSATED.
>> I WOULD CLARIFY, THIS WAS NOT UNDERTAKEN AS A BUDGETARY
SAVINGS OR INCREASE MANEUVER. >> WHAT WAS THE INTENT, I GUESS,
GETTING BACK TO THAT QUESTION? >> THE MAYOR'S COMMITMENT TO WAS TO MAKE SURE THAT OUR TEAM IS COMPENSATED APPROPRIATELY.
>> WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? >> UM, I THINK APPROPRIATELY IS OPEN TO INTERPRETATION BUT WE RECOGNIZE WE PAY CARMEL CALIBER WAGES BECAUSE WE HAVE CARMEL CALIBER EMPLOYEES. BUT IT HAD BEEN A LONG TIME SINCE WE EVER COMPARED MOST SALARIES TO ANYTHING. AGAIN, IT WAS A HIGHLY BASTERIZED COMPENSATION STRUCTURE, JUST WHICH EVER DIRECTOR WAS THE MOST CONVINCING GOT THEIR PERSON MOVED AT TIMES, YOU KNOW, SIX GRADES UP WITHOUT ANY RATIONALE, WITHOUT ANY POLICY BEHIND IT. WE HAD A BROKEN SYSTEM THAT HAD NOT BEEN--
>> I WANT TO-- >> CAN I ADD SOMETHING?
>> PLEASE. >> CAN YOU GO BACK? THE RECOMMENDATION? NO, THAT. YEAH. SO, THESE ARE THE PAY BANS THAT
[00:40:02]
WE ARE RECOMMENDING, BUT AT THIS POINT I AM NOT RECOMMENDING WHAT OUR STRATEGY SHOULD BE, I VIEW IT AS SORT OF LAYERED, LIKE THIS IS BASED ON MARKET DATA, AND OUR CURRENT RATES, DO NOT VARY THAT MUCH FROM WHERE WE CURRENTLY, BECAUSE WE ARE CARMEL AND WE DO WANT TO PAY WELL. THE INTENT WAS NOT A WAY TO PAY PEOPLE LESS, OUR PLAN ALLOWS US TO PAY PEOPLE MORE THE LONGER THEY ARE HERE. I THINK WE SHOWED REWARD LONGEVITY IN THAT WAY. HOW WE APPLY THIS IS YET TOBY DETERMINED. THE WORKED FOR ORGANIZATIONS THE GOAL WAS GET EVERYBODY TO MIDPOINT AND THEY HANG THERE.THAT MIGHT NOT BE OUR STRATEGY, MAYBE OUR GOAL, BECAUSE WE THINK CARMEL IS THE BEST CITY EVER, MAYBE WE WANT TO GET EVERYBODY TO MAXIMUM. THE STRATEGY BEHIND THIS, I DON'T FEEL, HAS REALLY
BEDECIDED. THIS IS JUST-- >> AGREE.
>> RANGES TO, ACTUALLY ALLOW MORE FLEXIBILITY TO PAY PEOPLE APPROPRIATELY, WHICH COULD MEAN BETTER.
>> I GUESS THAT IS MY ISSUE WITH THE WHOLE PROCESS IS THERE IS NOT A STRATEGY. THERE IS NO REASON FOR DOING THIS OTHER THAN A PROMISE TO DO IT, BUT WHEN I LOOK AT DATA, I AM NOT SEEING THE DATA ON THE BACK END, BUT THE CONCEPT HERE NOT BEING SUSTAINABLE MODEL, I CAN SEE THERE BEING HIGH EFFICACY IN THE CONCEPT OF YOU START A CAREER AND YOU GET TO MAX SALARY WITHIN THOSE BUMPS IN YEAR FIVE OR SIX, THAT IS PROBABLY WHEN YOU ARE EXPERT, HIT THE KNOWLEDGE BASE, YOU GROW FROM THERE, FROM THAT.
BUT IF YOUR JOB IS SOMETHING YOU WANT TO STAY INTO PERPETUITY AND YOU ARE HAPPY WITH THAT AND THE PAY IS ENOUGH TO SUSTAIN THAT, IT SOMETHING WORTH WHILE, YOU STAY IN THAT ROLE. I WOULD LOVE TO SEE WHAT OUR LIFE CYCLE FOR EMPLOYEES IS, IS IT HIGHER THAN IT IS FOR PLACES LIKE THE STATE THAT HAS A DIFFERENT PAY STRUCTURE, DOESN'T INCENTIVEIZE PEOPLE IN A WAY THAT MAKES THEM WANT TO STAY, UNLESS YOU CAN FIGHT FOR IT. THE IDEA THAT WE ARE TAKING AN OUTSIDE STRUCTURE, CREATE AGNEW THING WITHOUT A STRATEGY OF HOW WE IMPLEMENT IT TO TAKE CARE OF OUR STAFF AND OUR STAFFING NEEDS AS A CITY, SEEMS TO BE MISSING THE POINT OF DOING A SALARY STUDY. THE STATE, THE REASON WE DID IT A COUPLE OF YEARS AKNOW WAS THAT EVERYBODY WAS SO UNDERPAID, IT WAS TIME IN A GLORIOUS FLOOD OF EXTRA MONEY, WHATEVER YEAR, 2021, 2022, ZACH, YOU PROBABLY REMEMBER BETTER THAN ME BECAUSE YOU HAD TO DO THE WHOLE THING, WE SAID LETS COMPENSATE PEOPLE SO WE DON'T LOSE THEM. THE FLIP HAS WHEN TAKING ON A MODEL OF A DIFFERENT STRUCTURE WITHOUT A RATIONALE FOR WHY WE ARE DOING IT, OR WITHOUT THE STRATEGY HOW WE IMPLEMENT IT WE ARE CREATING CHANGE FOR THE SAKE OF, AGAIN, IMPERICALLY SAVING $318,000 IN TWO YEARS. I GUESS I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW HOT THAT STRATEGY IS, WHAT IS THE DATA THAT SHOWS IT WILL BE BETTER FOR EMPLOYEES, BETTER FOR THE RUN OF KEEPING PEOPLE IN A POSITION WHERE THEY FEEL THEY ARE FULFILLING THEIR OBLIGATION TO THEIR CITY, THE PLACE THAT THEY WORK, EVEN IF THEY DON'T LIVE HERE, THEY ARE CARMEL, IN A WAY THAT THEY ARE COMPENSATED TO STAY. I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW IF WE ARE BETTER OFF THAN OTHER PLACES, I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW IF THAT IS A THING, IF WE ARE LOOKING AT MARKET DATA,THER PAY BAND ITSELF IS NOT THE MARKET. I DON'T WANT TO COMPETE WITH FISHER'S FOR STREET DEPARTMENT. I WANT OUR STREET DEPARTMENT TO BE TAKEN CARE OF IN A WAY OURS IS OURS AND FISHER'S NEEDS TO KEEP UP WITH US IF THEY WANT OUR PEOPLE.
NOT THE OTHER WAY. I DON'T THINK THIS IS A FAULT OF YOU WERE GIVEN A TASK, I THINK WE ARE MISSING THE REASON. THAT HAS BEEN MY ISSUE THE WHOLE TIME. SO, AGAIN, BACK TO MY QUESTIONS, THE IDEA OF HOW WE DETERMINE THIS, I THINK IT IS TELLING AND MAYBE WE WEREN'T GETTING THE SERVICE WE NEEDED FROM THE CONTRACTOR, BUT WE PIVOTED AWAY FROM A CONTRACTOR AND WENT TO HIRING AN INTERNAL STAFF MEMBER, TO THEN MAKE THESE DETERMINATIONS. IN THE IMAGE, NOT OF THIRD PARTY VALIDATOR BUT OF WHAT WE NEEDED TO DO FOR WHATEVR REASON THAT WE DON'T KNOW BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T FIGURED HOW WE IMPLEMENT IT SEEMS
MODERATELY ARBITRARY. >> COUNSELOR Y WOULD ARGUE WE WERE GOING TO PAY A LOT FOR A WORK PRODUCT THAT WAS NOT GOING TO BE USEFUL. WHENEVER I APPROACH THE VENDOR AND SAID I WAS AGGRADE OF GARBAGE IN, GARBAGE OUT, WE ARE GOING TO NEED TO DO A DEEP DIVE ON WHAT FOLKS ACTUALLY DO.
>> THAT WAS OUR DECISION, WE DIDN'T SEND OUR GARBAGE AND THEY SAID IT WAS GARBAGE, WE DECIDED IT WAS GARBAGE BEFORE WE
HAD THEM LOOK AT IT. >> THEY ESSENTIALLY SAID, AND I SAID WE ARE GOING TO NEED TO GET IN THE WEEDS. THAT MIGHT ALSO INCLUDE JOB SHADOWING. THEY SAID WE CANNOT HELP YOU WITH THIS
[00:45:04]
PROJECT. SO THEY REMOVED THEMSELVES FROM IT. THEY WERE UNWILLING OR UNABLE TO REALLY GET THIS RIGHT.>> OKAY. >> UM, I MEAN, I GUESS I COULD GO THROUGH THESE. I NEED TO BE CONVINCED SOMEHOW THAT THIS IS NECESSARY NOW. IT WOULD BE FINANCIAL, IT COULD BE THAT IF WE DO NOT DO THIS WE WILL NOT SURVIVE THIS AS A CITY, OR WE WILL NEED TO MAKE CUTS ELSEWHERE OR GET RID OF PEOPLE. I NEED SOME TYPE OF CONVINCING TO SAY THIS IS SOMETHING WURTHD WHILE DOING, THE WAY IT WAS DONE, THE WAY WITH THE INPUT, THE FEEDBACK I HAVE GOTTEN SHOWS THAT THERE IS JUST A GENERAL LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THIS MEANS AND HOW IT IS GOING TO IMPACT PEOPLE'S LIVES, WHICH I AGREE, I DON'T KNOW I HAVE ANYMORE INFORMATION TONIGHT ABOUT THAT. MAYBE LESS KNOWING WE DON'T KNOW HOW WE WILL IMPLEMENT THIS MOVING FORWARD. I DO KNOW, TO YOUR POINT OF THE OLD SYSTEM, THE ONE VOTE THAT I REGRET THE MOST ON THIS COUNCIL WAS VOTE TO CHANGE THE TOP PAY BAND WHICH INCREASED THE SALARIES OF ALL OF THE TOP LEADERS BY A HUGE MARGIN, IN THE FACE OF EVERYTHING WE ARE ENTERING INTO NOW, IT FEELS LIKE A BIG SLAP IN THE FACE TO ALL MID LEVEL OR LESSER BUREAUCRATS THAT WE HAVE FOUND A WAY TO FIND A PATH THROUGH THAT AND HERE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT CUTTING STREET DEPARTMENTS OVERTIME WHEN THEY HAVE TO PLOW THE STREETS IF IT SNOWS. ONE PAY PERIOD $186,000 IN OVERTIME NECESSARY TO CLEAR THE STREETS OF THE CITY. IF WE DIDN'T DO THAT, WE WOULDN'T BE CARMEL. THOSE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT. I SAY ALL THAT, I NEED WAY MORE TO FEEL LIKE THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS WORTH WHILE TO DO, WHETHER NEGATIVE TO WHAT WE HAVE NOW AND DATA THAT BACKS UP WHY THAT IS SOMETHING WE SHOULDN'T HAVE, OR POSITIVE TO WHAT THIS CHANGE WILL BE OR SOME IMPLICATION HOW THIS WILL BE ADMINISTERED IN A WAY THERE IS FAIRNESS, IMMROE OOZE, LEADERSHIP TASKED WITH OVERSEEING AND SUPPORTING FEELING LIKE THEY ARE ADEQUATELY COMPENSATED TO DO THIS JOB FOR THE CITY.
>> YEP. I WILL GO NEXT. >> THANK YOU.
>> THANK YOU, COUNCIL LOCKE. I GUESS I AM GOING TO START OUT, I MAY HAVE TO GET JIM UP HERE TO HELP ME, BUT I HAVE BEEN DOING THIS FOR A WHILE AND I HAVE NEVER SEEN A ROOM FULL OF EMPLOYEES DEMONSTRATING CONCERN TO CITY COUNCIL. IMMEDIATELY THE HAIR ON THE BACK OF MY NECK IS UP AND I AM WORRIED. NEVER SEEN THIS BEFORE. SO, BUT I AM ALSO CONFUSED BECAUSE WHEN I WENT THROUGH THIS SALARY STUDY, AS AN EXAMPLE, EVERY CATEGORY IS GOING UP. SO, YOU KNOW, I AM JUST PICKING SOMETHING, CREW LEADER, NOT SURE I KNOW WHAT A CREW LEADER, IF THERE IS A CERTAIN DEPARTMENT, BUT A CREW LEADER IS GOING FROM A SALARY OF $2,119, UP TO $3,074. THAT APPEARS TO ME TO BE A GOOD THING. OKAY. SO I AM CONFSED. SO I NEED JIM TO HELP ME OUT, OR ANYBODY WHO WANTS TO SPEAK, BUT SO I REALLY WANT TO ASK THE ROOM, WHAT ARE OUR BIG CONCERNS? WHAT IS IT THAT I NEED TO KNOW THAT I MIGHT NOT KNOW? OVERTIME, THAT IS EASY. I GET THAT. I HAVE ALREADY SEEN THAT IN THE BUDGET, BUT OF THE SALARY STUDY THAT IS BEFORE US RIGHT NOW, THIS IS A RANGE AND SOMEONE IS GOING TO DECIDE WHETHER I AM AT THE BOTTOM OF THE RANGE OR THE TOP OF THE RANGE. MAYBE WE NEED TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT. BUT IT IS PERSON ON THE STEPPING GRADE WHO HAS BEEN HERE 15 YEARS, ARE THEY GETTING, I CAN'T USE THE WORD I WANT TO USE, BUT ARE THEY
GETTING CHEATED? >> JUST TO CLARIFY, NO EMPLOYEE
WILL HAVE-- >> SORRY. LET ME HEAR EXACTLY.
>> NO EMPLOYEE'S SALARY WILL BE REDUCED OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT AS
[00:50:01]
A RESULT OF THIS. IF ANYTHING, EMPLOYEES CAPPED AT THE MAX TODAY, WHICH, AGAIN, ON JANUARY 1, 70% OF UREMPLOYEES WILL BE CAPPED AT THE MAX, THEY CAN ONLY GROW THROUGH COLA INCREASE, THIS PROVIDES THEM WITH ADDITIOAL TEN TO 30% OF RUNWAY BEYOND WHAT THE CURRENT CAP IS. I ALSO JUST WANT TO CLARIFY, FORGOT TO RESPOND EARLIER, THERE IS NO PART OF THE-- NOT SAYING IT IS UNRELATED OR NOT A VALID CONCERN, BUT THERE IS NO PART OFTHIS THAT TOUCHES OVERTIME. >> YEAH. THAT ONE, YEAH, WE GOT
>> SO, WOULD ANYONE FROM THE AUDIENCE LIKE TO HELP ME
UNDERSTAND? >> TO COUNCIL WORRELL'S POINT, THAT IS WHAT I AM TRYING TO UNDERSTAND, IF THE BANDS ARE WIDENING, AND THE MAXIMUMS ARE INCREASING, WHICH ALLOWS PEOPLE TO EARN MORE MONEY IN THEIR POSITION, IS THERE A CASE WHERE-- IS THAT, JUST A MISCOMMUNICATION AND EMPLOYEES DON'T UNDERSTAND, OR ARE THERE TITLES CHANGING THAT CHANGE THEM FROM A TITLE IN A HIGHER BAND, TO NOW A LOWER BAND? OR, I AM
TRYING TO UNDERSTAND-- >> BESIDES THE OVERTIME THING,
LIKE JEFF SAID, I AM BEFUDDLED. >> THERE WERE TWO POSITIONS MOVED DOWN ONE GRADE. THOSE WERE THE ONLY TWO. ONE WAS IN MY DEPARTMENT, SOMEBODY STILL CLASSIFIED AS A DIRECTOR THAT SHOULD NO LONGER BE CLASSIFIED AS DIRECTOR. I AM NOT SURE WHAT THE OTHER WAS BUT THOSE ARE THE ONLY TWO THAT WENT DOWN A GRADE, SALARIES WERE NOT IMPACTED BY THAT. THEIR SALARIES ARE STILL
WITHIN THAT LOWER GRADE. >> FROM MY EXPERIENCE OF 20 YEARS IN THE CORPORATE WORLD, WHERE WE REEVALUATED JOB DESCRIPTIONS EVERY THREE OR FOUR YEARS, THEY DID SALARY STUDIES, WE HAD, SOMETIMES WE HAD EXTRA INCREASES AT THE END OF THE YEAR BECAUSE THEY ADDED A SALARY STUDY. IF THERE IS THIS MUCH CONFUSION, IT SEEMS IT COMES DOWN TO COMMUNICATION. SO, BESIDES THOSE TWO, I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM STAFF ABOUT, IS THERE ANY CONCERNS RELATED TO THIS STEP AND GRADE MODEL AND EXPANDING OF THE BANDS? IF THERE IS CONFUSION OR CONCERN OR
SOMETHING WE ARE NOT GETTING. >> YEP,IER MIGHT SPEAK FROM THE ODD PLACE WHEN WE TALK ABOUT I.T. BECAUSE IT IS TECHNOLOGY, ONE OF THE CHALLENGES WE HAVE IS WE ARE NOT ATTRACTING TALENT AT PROPOSED MINIMUM WAGE GRADE. I DEFINITELY APPRECIATE WIDENING THE RANGE AS WE GO INTO THE MAXIMUM. FOR US TO ATTRACT TALENT FROM THE CORPORATE SIDE OR OFF THE STREET, WE ARE STARTING THEM AT POTENTIALLY SOME OF THE TOPS OF THESE GRADES ALREADY. YOU MIGHT HAVE AN EMPLOYEE THAT HAS BEEN HERE 15 YEARS, CAPPED OUT AND HAVE A LITTLE ROOM TO WORK, BUT TO DRAG THE BEST OF WHAT WE HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR IN CARMEL, WE ARE ALREADY STARTING THEM WAY UP HIGH ON THE GRADES. I CAN ONLY SPEAK FROM TECHNOLOGY PERSPECTIVE BUT THAT IS ONE OF THE CHALLENGES AS WE TRY TO GET THE BEST EMPLOYEES POSSIBLE TO
FILL OUR ROLE . >> SO, WOULD YOU THEN SAY THAT -- SO ARE WE STICKING WITH THE GRADE SYSTEM?
>> YES. QUICK NOTE, WE DID MEET WITH KEVIN TODAY, WHAT IS HIS
EXACT TITLE? I ALWAYS FORGET. >> TECHNOLOGY.
>> DIRECTOR OF I.T. >> WE DID TALK HOW IT IS COMPRACTICE TO SERVE OUT CERTAIN POSITIONS LIKE I.T., TO HIS POINT THEY DON'T MAKE SENSE IN A SYSTEM LIKE THIS, WE HAVE TO PAY TOP DOLLAR TO ATTRACT PEOPLE IN THAT INDUSTRY. WE ARE TALKING
ABOUT THINGS LIKE THAT. >> OKAY. ALL RIGHT.
>> I CERTAINLY APPRECIATE THE WIDENING THE RANGE. I THINK IT DOES DO SOMETHING FOR EMPLOYEES THAT HAVE BEEN HERE FOR SOMETIME. I KIND OF GO BACK TO WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT WITH SWORN, POLICE AND FIRE, WE MADE THACOMMITMENT WE WANT THE BEST OUT THERE TO FILL THOSE ROLES. I THINK WE NEED TO LOOK AT THAT THE SAME WAYWAY AS WE GO ACROSS THE CIVILIAN MARK.
>> COUNCIL LOCK? >> I WANTED TO MAKE A POINT ON THAT. THE FINANCIAL EXTERNALITY DOING CHANGING THE PROCESS, THOSE BUMPS, IS NOW FINANCIAL CONSTRAINTS CITY BUDGETING WILL ATTRIBUTE WHETHER OR NOT THERE ARE RAISES BEING ALLOCATED FOR
[00:55:01]
PEOPLE. WE ALREADY HAVE THAT A LITTLE WITH COLA, BUT THE CONCEPT NOW, IF YOU GET AWAY FROM THE GRADE BUMP, YOU CAN GET MANDATED BY POTENTIALLY LEADERSHIP IN A MORE CENTRALIZED WAY WHERE SOME GET AND SOME DON'T. CREATE AS SYSTEM WHERE STREET DEPARTMENT IS THE EXAMPLE BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT HERE, MAY GET ALCADED TWO RAISEALS TOTAL. THAT IS ALL THEY GET TO DO, EVEN IF THEY HAD NINE PEOPLE WITH EXCEPTION PROCESS, THIS IS SOMETHING THE STATE WENT THROUGH A LITTLE UNDER A DECADE AGO AS THEY WERE LOOKING AT PERFORMANCE-BASED COMPENSATION, THEY MOVED AWAY BECAUSE IT WAS HORRENDOUS BUILDER OF BAD BLOOD BETWEEN EMPLOYEES AND THEIR BOSSES. I HAD AN EXPERIENCE WHERE A BOSS CAME IN AND CRIED BECAUSE SHE WAS NOT ALLOWED TO GIVE PEOPLE ALL EXCEPTIONAL RACES AND HAD TOOB PICK BETWEEN HER CHILDREN, EMPLOYEES, HOW THAT WAS BEING ALLOCATED. I THINK THE ONE EXTERNALITY OF THIS, ON ITS FACE, THE IDEA OF BROADENING RANGE MATTERS IF YOU GET AWAY FROM THE STEPPING GRADE PROCESS, YOU ARE ELIMINATING THE BUMP UP THAT BECOMES AUTOMATIC, INCENTIVEIZING THE HARDEST TO MAINTAIN AN EMPLOYEE, FIRST YEARS OF WHEN YOU CREATE SOMETHING THAT CHANGES BEHAVEURIC PUT IT IN A POSITION WHERE IT BECOME AS MANAGER TOOL KIT, IF IT IS A AN APPROACH, YOU ARE ELIMINATING THE ABILITY OF A LARGE ORGANIZATION TO CREATE THAT PAY, PRETTY ESOTERIC IN THE PROCESS.THE THING THAT HAS BEEN SUSTAINABLE FOR THE GROWTH OF THE TEAM, THE JUMP TO THE LEVEL THAT MAKES SENSE, AND THEN I THINK THE PIECE MISSING IN ALL OF THIS IS DECOUPLING OF THE RAISE OR CONVERSATION THE MATRIX CHANGES WE DID FROM THE SWORN HAS PUT THE REST OF OUR STAFF IN A POSITION WHERE THEY DON'T FEEL LIKE ANYBODY IS ADVOCATING FOR THEM. SO, I THINK, FOR ME, THAT IS ONE OF THE EXTERNALITIES IS ROUGH. NEXT YEAR WE WILL SAY THERE IS ENOUGH MONEY FOR A RAISE, BUT WE CAN DO $2 MILLION IN RAISES, WE WILL ALL FEEL GOOD WE CHANGE IT INTO A MERIT-BASED STRUCTURE. ALLOCATED IN A SPECIFIC WAY BY CENTRALIZED IDEA SET THAT CHANGES THE TENOR OF THE CITY, FINANCE DEPARTMENT, AND ITS STAFF MOVING FORWARD. THAT IS THE EXTERNALITY I SEE THAT IS A BUMMER EVEN THOUGH IT DOES BROADEN THE RANGE, THE LIKELIHOOD EVERYBODY IS GOING TO BUMP UP TO THAT LESSENED BASED ON THE CONCEPT THAT NOW WE ARE APPLYING IT INDIVIDUALLY.
>> IT IS GREAT THAT YOU HAVE THAT PERSPECTIVE FROM BEING IN GOVERNMENT AS SOMEBODY WHO HAS BEEN IN PRIVATE INDUSTRY 19 YEARS, I HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS STEPPING GRADE SYSTEM AT ALL IN MY ENTIRE LIFE UNTIL I STARTED WORKING WITH CARMEL CLAY PARKS IN 2010. IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR, YOUR RAISE IS DIRECTLY BASED ON PROFITABILITY AVAILABLE FUNDS AND YOUR PERFORMANCE, SO IT IS, HOW DO WE GET TO A PLACE WHERE WE ARE REWARDING TOP PERFORMERS, ATTRACTING THE TOP TALENT, UM, AND THOSE ARE, YOU KNOW, DIFFICULT CONVERSATIONS RIGHT NOW, PARTICULARLY WITH WHAT WE ARE DEALING WITH ARE REDUCTION OF REVENUE.
>> YES. >> KAREN SUTTON, CARMEL POLICE,AGAIN, I AM GOING TO TRY TO HIT SOME OF THOSE THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT. BUT I FEEL IT IS IMPORTANT TO ALSO TELL YOU THAT I AM TERRIFIED TO SPEAK UP BECAUSE OF MY POSITION, BECAUSE I AM NOT PROTECTED, BECAUSE OF WHAT I SAY, I GET IN TROUBLE.
BUT, A COUPLE OF THINGS. THAT BEING SAID, THE COMMUNICATION ON IT, OBVIOUSLY, WE HAVE ALL HAD SPECIFICALLY, MINE MINE ARE VERY SPECIFIC TO MY AGENCY, WE HAVE A MEETING 3:00, WHATEVER, TOLD DO YOU HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS? I HAVE YOUR LETTERS HERE IN MY HAND, DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS? WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT QUESTIONS TO ASK. WE DON'T HAVE LETTERS, WE HAD TO LINE UP ALPHABETICAL. THE COMMUNICATION WAS DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND KIND OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING ELSEWHERE FOR US, LIKE MY MID POINT RIGHT NOW, ACCORDING TO THE BAND STRUCTURE, IS LESS THAN WHAT I
[01:00:01]
MAKE RIGHT NOW, GRANTED I AM AT SPINS SO MANY QUESTIONS FOR ME, DO I FREEZE? I AM 20 YEARS SO I AM WHERE YOU THINK I SHOULD BE AS MY MID POINT, BUT THE FOUR OF US, THE FOUR CSIS WERE ALSO TRAINED TO A HIGHER LEVEL THAN ANY OF OUR PIERS IN THE COUNTY.SO, I AM AT THE MID POINT BUT NOW DO I FREEZE THERE BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN HERE SO LONG? OR HOW DO YOU INCENTIVEIZE ME OR US AS CSIS IF I HAVE TWO MURDERS, DO I GET A BONUS? IS THAT-- I MEAN,
HOW DO YOU INCENTIVEIZE ME? >> RIGHT.
>> HOW DO I MEET A CRITERIA FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT I DO, OR WE DO. I AM LOSING ALL FOUR OF US, I AM SPEAKING FROM MY PARTNERS, BUT I AM LOSING MONEY, MY COMPENSATION PACKAGE HAS BEEN BROUGHT DOWN . I AM LOSING MY TAKE-HOME CAR, LOSING $7,000 A YEAR, I AM LOSING MONEY NOW. HOW DO I EVER GET TO THIS MAXIMUM IF I AM WHERE THE CITY BELIEVES ME TO
BE? >> WE HAVE NOT TOLD ANY EMPLOYEES THEY ARE LOSING THEIR VEHICLES YET.
>> TO BE FAIR, THAT IS TRUE. >> WE ARE PUTTING GEOTAB DEVICES ON VEHICLES TO UNDERSTAND THE UTILIZATION AND WILL MAKE
DECISIONS BASED UPON THAT. >> CAN I SAY SOMETHING? I AM SORRY THAT WAS YOUR EXPERIENCE, RECEIVING THE LETTERS, I THINK THERE WAS MISCOMMUNICATIONS, I WANT TO APOLOGIZE. WE DID NOT PROVIDE A LOT OF DIRECTION TO DIRECTORS OR SUPERVISORS WHO WERE HANDING OUT THE LETTERS, SO I AM ASSUMING THEY WANTED TO BE EFFICIENT. I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY THAT MIGHT FEEL SCARY. I APOLOGIZE FOR MISCOMMUNICATION MY DEPARTMENT ORER MYSELF MAY HAVE CAUSED BUT THAT WAS NEVER INTENTION TO SCARE PEOPLE WITH THE LETTERS. IN FACT, WE WERE HOPING TO GET SOME INFORMATION OUT SO THAT THERE WAS AN AWARENESS BEFORE THE COUNCIL MEETING SO PEOPLE WEREN'T LEARNING ABOUT IT WATCHING YOUTUBE OR WHATEVER. I DO THINK THERE WERE BIG LESSONS LEARNED.
>> I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT, MY CHIEF DIDN'T KNOW EITHER, SO, NO BLAME ON HIM EITHER, HE WAS IN THE SAME BOAT. WE DON'T KNOW
WHAT IS GOING: >> CAN JUST-- WHAT WAS IN THE
LETTER? WHAT IS THE LETTER? >> I CAN TELL YOU MY LETTER SAID YOU ARE-- YOUR TITLE IS-- CHANGING FROM FORENSIC SPECIALIST TO CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATOR, WHICH IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN KNOWN AS FOREVER, AND THERE IS NO PAY RAISE. LOT OF OURS DIDN'T MAKE ANY SENSE, MY PARTNER, MARK, SAID HIS WAS STAYING THE SAME AS CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATOR. SO THEY HAVE ALL BEEN DIFFERENT THINGS THEY SAID BUT MOST SAID YOU ARE STAYING HERE, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN YOUR COMPENSATION.
>> OKAY. >> IF I CAN CLARIFY, I THINK THERE WERE PROBABLY FIVE DIFFERENT TYPES OF LETTERS, IT ADDRESSED BASICALLY WHETHER YOUR TITLE WAS CHANGING OR NOT, WHETHER YOUR GRADE WAS CHANGING OR NOT, WHETHER YOUR PAY WAS CHANGING OR NOT. FIVE DIFFERENT TYPES OF LETTERS LETTING THEM KNOW THE RESULTS OF THE JAQ AND MARKET STUDY ON THEIR POSITION.
>> COUNCIL SNYDER. >> I RAN AWAY FROM MY DAUGHTER'S SOCCER PRACTICE, I GOT TO SAY MY PIECE AND GET BACK TO IT. I DO WANT TO SAY, WHETHER UNINTENTIONAL OR NOT, THE STAFF WOULDN'T BE TALKING ABOUT LETTER THEIR CARS IF YOU HADN'T HAVE SAID THEY WERE LOSING CARS. I DON'T KNOW, I DON'T THINK THAT IS ACCURATE THAT YOU NEVER SAID THEY WERE LOSING THEIR CARS BECAUSE THEY WERE TOLD THAT AND WHETHER IT WAS SUPPOSE TO BE THAT WAY OR NOT, THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED. THEY HAVE BEEN TOLD THEY WERE LOSING THEIR VEHICLES. WHY STAFF MAY BE UPSET. FOR MANY YEARS, THE STAFF WAS TIED TO THE FIRE DEPARTMENT. WHATEVER THE FIRE DEPARTMENT GOT, THE STAFF GOT. WHETHER THAT IS RIGHT OR WRONG, THAT BECAME THE EXPECTATION OVER MOST PEOPLE'S ENTIRE CAREERS. THE MINUTE THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN, I WOULD HAVE ALARM BELLS RINGING IF I WAS IN STAFF LIKE, WE ARE GOING TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT BUT I ASSUME WHERE WILL STILL BE TAKEN CARE OF. I HATE 3% COALA AND RAISE IN THE SAME SENTENCE, NOBODY THAT WORKS FOR THE CITY OF CARMEL IS DUMB. THEY REALIZE THAT IS NOT A
[01:05:05]
RAISE, THAT IS AN ADJUSTMENT. BUT I THINK CONSTERNATION ALSO GOES BACK TO SOMEHOW WE HAVE SEPARATED THE IMPORTANCE OF DEPARTMENTS TO A DEGREE, AND WHERE DEPARTMENT HEADS, AT LEAST IN MY EYES AND I ASSUME STAFF'S EYES WE ARE OALL EQUAL PLAYING FIELD. NOW THERE IS , KELLY, ARGUABLY, MAYBE NOT, ALL IN THIS UPPER TIER, THIS NEW TIER OF DIRECTORS, SUPER DIRECTORS, THIS LAYER OF BUREAUCRACY. THE COST TO THE CITY, SO YOURS IS $280 SOMETHING, NICK'S $299,000. SAM'S IS $270 SOMETHING, PLUS ANOTHER $30,000 FROM THE DEFERRAL PROGRAM. SAM'S IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE SHE COST HAD CITY $300,000 BUT JOHNOBEERLANDER MADE $-- NO, MY TURN, LOT OF THESE ARE NEW, THEY ARE NEW THINGS, YOU MAY HAVE REPLACED SOMEBODY, BUT THEY ARE NEW. IN ALL END, THERE IS NEW MONEY OVER $1 MILLION. IF I AM A MEMBER OF THE STAFF LOOKING AT MY DEPARTMENT, I AM SEEING A MILLION DOLLARS THIS NEW MONEY, I AM THINKING WHY WAS-- WHY DID THAT MONEY NOT, IF THEY HAD THE MONEY, WHY DIDN'T IT GET DISTRIBUTED AMONGST THE STAFF? I THINK THAT IS A CONCERN I WOULD HAVE. THERE IS SO MUCH NEW MONEY, WHOLE MARKETING DEPARTMENT, THAT DOESN'T HELP ANY OF THE PEOPLE, THAT IS NEW MONEY. SO, PARTLY, I WOULD BE SITTING THERE THINKING, WHY DID WE GO DO ALL THESE EXPERIMENTS BEFORE WE WERE TAKEN CARE OF FIRST? THAT IS WHY WHAT I AM FRUSTRATED ABOUT BECAUSE WE SEEM TO BE TAKING CARE OF THE NEW, INSTEAD OF EXISTING, AND BECOMING PREVAILING THEORY THROUGHOUT THE CITY IN MY OPINION. WE TALK ABOUT HOW ALTRUISTIC IT IS THAT THE MAYOR'S STAFF ISN'T TAKING THE 3% COLA RAISE, AND I HEARD COMMENTS THE COUNCIL STILL IS, WE HAVEN'T GOTTEN A BUDGET, WHETHER WE ARE OR NOT ISN'T RELEVANT BUT IF WE DO IT IS $6,000, FOR THE ENTIRE COUNCIL. FOR THE THE NEW MILLION PLUS DOLLARS WHICH INCLUDES ALSO FIRE CHIEF AND POLICE CHIEF, AND YOU MADE A COMMENT, I WAS LISTENING TO THE MEETING TRYING TO GET HERE, ABOUT IT USED TO BE WHOEVER DEPARTMENT LEADER SCREAMED THE LOUDEST. YES, IF THEY DON'T SCREAM LOUD ENOUGH THE STAFF SHOULD GO TO HR AND THAT PERSON SHOULD GET FIRED, NAY SHOULD BE ADVOCATING, THEY KNOW THEIR EMPLOYEES BETTER THAN ANYBODY AND THAT IS WHERE WE HAVE GOTTEN WAY FROM THE HUMAN TOUCH. I KNOW IT CONTINUES TO GROW BUT I HAVE BEEN IN HUGE COMPANIES, SMALL COMPANIES, AND THE ONES SUCCESSFUL TAKE CARE OF THEIR EMPLOYEES ALL LEVEL, BUT THE DIRECTORS ALL DO. THERE IS NO ADADVICACY, ESPECIALLY WITH IS THE BANDS. I AM SORRY TO CUT YOU OFF, BUT I DO NEED TO GET BACK TO MY DAUGHTER'S SOCCER PRACTICE BUT I AM FRUSTRATED ABOUT THIS AND I DON'T WANT TO TAKE AWAY FROM THE WORK YOU HAVE DONE, BUT IT I WANT IS THE EMPLOYEES TAKEN CARE OF FIRST BEFORE EVERYBODY ELSE. Y'ALL DID GET TAKEN CARE OF. ANYBODY IN THE C SUITE IS MAKING WELL OVER $2,000 A YEAR, THAT NEVER USED TO BE A THING EVER. I APPRECIATE YOU, ZACH, I DIDN'T MEAN TO COME ACROSS AS AN ASS, I WILL TAKE CARE OF THESE PEOPLE. THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN, FORLETTING ME COME. >> THE ONLY THING I WAS GOING TO CLARIFY IS WHEN YOU WERE SPEAKING ABOUT SAM'S, THAT DEFERRAL PIECE ISN'T AN ADDITION, IT REPRESENTS HOW WHERE IT COMES FROM, MOST OF HER COMPENSATION COMES FROM GENERAL FUND, A PORTION COMES FROM DEFERRAL FUND.
>> THANK YOU. >> WANT TO ECHO WHAT COUNCIL SNYDER SAID, ALONG THOSE LINES ONE ACTION, I KNOW I CAN'T MAKE MOTIONS, NOT A MEMBER OF INCOMMITTEE, I WOULD RECOMMEND
[01:10:03]
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE SALARY ORDINANCE, WE HAVE TWO POSITIONS THAT THE MAYOR HAS SAID SHE WILL NOT BACKFILL, BUT ASKED HER TO KEEP IT IN THE ORDINANCE, $200,000 PLUS POSITIONS ALLUDED TO, CHIEF INFRASTRUCTURE OFFICER, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT DIRECTOR, I WOULD RECOMMEND YOU STRIKE THAT FROM THE ORDINANCE, SHE SAYS ONE DAY SHE WOULD LIKE TO ADD THESE POSITIONS, GREAT T IS VERY QUICK AND EASY TO ADD THEM AGAIN. WE HAD THIS BEFORE.IT DOZEN PRECLUDE HER FROM ASKING IN THE FUTURE BUT IF YOU LEAVE IT IN THERE, WE HAVE NO SAY, WE CANNOT PREVENT THE MAYOR FROM HIRING THESE POSITIONS, SOMEHOW MONEY IS FOUND OR OR WHATEVER WAY. I WOULD SAY THOSE POSITIONS SHOULD BE ELIMINATED FROM THERE AND ALONG THE LINE YOU TALK COMMUNICATIONS, THE LETTER BEING AN ISSUE. YOU USUALLY WERE HAVING ANNUAL OR SEMI ANNUAL ALL EMPLOYEE MEETINGS, SOMETHING I ARRANGED
AT MY DAY JOB, WHY WAS THAT? >> WE CHANGED THEM FROM ALL EMPLOYEE TO DEPARTMENT LEVEL, WE MET WITH ALL EMPLOYEES BUT WANTED TO CREATE A SMALLER VENUE SO EMPLOYEES COULD ASK QUESTIONS, COMFORTABLE, INSTEAD OF EVERYBODY IN ONE BIG ROOM WE
JUST MET AT DEPARTMENT LEVEL. >> WOULD ARGUE THERE IS VALUE,IO DON'T WANT EVERYBODY IN SILOS, HAVING PEOPLE REGARDLESS OF WHICH DEPARTMENT THEY ARE ON, I WOULD ENCOURAGE YOU TOVER THAT
IN THE FUTURE. >> I DON'T DISAGREE, WE GOT A LOT OF FEEDBACK FROM THE ALL EMPLOYEES IN THE FALL, EMPLOYEES DIDN'T LOVE THEM. TRIAL AND ERROR, BUT WE WANTED TO ENCOURAGE MORE DIALOGUE BUT WE WILL, THERE IS AN INTENT.
>> ONE THING YOU ARE ALWAYS TRYING TO DO IS MAKE SURE THAT YOU ARE TALKING WITH PEOPLE AND NOT AT THEM. THAT IS THE HARDEST PART OF THOSE MEETINGS. I UNDERSTAND THAT. IT FEELS LIKE IF EMPLOYEES FELT STRONGLY, THIS MAY HAVE BEEN A GREAT WAY TO TALK ABOUT IT AND GET SOME INFORMATION OUT THERE.
>> MAY I SUGGEST SOMETHING HERE TO COUNCIL LOCKE'S, WHAT WAS THE POINT IN DOING THIS IN THE FIRST PLACE? IT STARTED OFF WITH A, OUR EMPLOYEES, TEAM, ADEQUATELY COMPENSATED, IN ORDER TO ANSWER THAT IT FELT WE FIRST NEEDED TO MAKE SURE TITLES WERE ACCURATE, TO DO SOME MEANINGFUL COMPARISON. ONCE WE DID THAT STEP, THE NEXT STEP RESULTED IN US REALIZING THERE ARE SHORTFALLS WITH OUR, WITH THE STEP SYSTEM. I UNDERSTAND THERE ARE SOME, WHETHER IT IS COMMUNICATION OR, TO COUNCIL LOCKE'S POINT EARLIER, WHAT IS THE NEXT STEP IN THIS? WHAT IS THE PLAN? HOW DOES IT GET IMPLEMENTED? I WOULD SAY IT IS NOW KIND OF, THERE ARE TWO CHUNKS TO THIS, ONE SHOULD WE TITLE OUR PEOPLE MORE APPROPRIATELY? THE OTHER IS SHOULD WE DO AWAY WITH THE STEP IN GRADE SYSTEM? IT SOUNDS COUNCIL IS NOT READY TO SIGN OFF ON THAT DOING AWAY OF THE STEP IN GRADE. WE HAVE SOME WORK TO DO THERE. WITH THAT SAID, I DO THINK WE HAVE DONE A VERY GOOD JOB GETTING TITLES RIGHT. EVEN SINCE WE FIRST BROUGHT THIS TO COUNCIL LAST MONTH, THE REASON THERE IS A REVISET VERSION, BECAUSE WE HAVE CONTINUED TO MEET WITH EMPLOYEES.
DO WE TELL COUNSEL FIRST, WHAT WE THINK THE RIGHT ANSWER IS? AND THERE WERE ONGOING DISCUSSIONS WITH EMPLOYEES AND DEPARTMENT HEADS. I'M NOT SURE THAT WE -- THAT THERE WAS AN EASY PATH THERE IN TERMS OF -- JUST THE DIFFICULTIES OF KIND OF OVERHAULING THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT SYSTEM AND THE SANDBOX IN WHICH THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY MAKES US PLAY IS THAT COUNCIL SETS SALARIES FOR EVERY POSITION, AND IN ORDER TO KIND OF HAVE THAT DISCUSSION ABOUT IS THIS THE RIGHT SALARY TITLE, IT,
[01:15:03]
UNFORTUNATELY, HAS TO BE A PUBLIC DISCUSSION. WHERE MY RAMBLE IS GOING, IF COUNCIL WANTS TO PAUSE CHANGES TO THE STEP AND GRADE SYSTEM, I TOTALLY GET THAT, LET'S KEEP TALKING. MY HOPE IS THAT I'D LOVE TO CONVINCE YOU IN MAKING SURE THAT TITLES ARE NOW THE MOST REFLECTIVE AND HAVE IMPROVED, AGAIN, OF THE 160 TITLES THAT CHANGED, I THINK OVER HALF OF THEM WERE AT THE UTILITY DEPARTMENT WHERE THE BIGGEST CHANGE THERE WAS WE TOOK OUT THE WORD SEWER OUT OF BOOM'S TITLE AND REPLACED IT WITH WASTE %-Ú A PATH FORWARD ON UPDATING TITLES EVEN IF WE CAN'T MOVE FORWARD.>> THANK YOU FOR THAT. WE DID HAVE SOMEONE ELSE WHO WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK. SO I'D LIKE TO HAVE YOU COME BACK UP AND ARTICULATE SOME OF YOUR CONCERNS AND WHAT WE ASKED FOR.
>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH. ADAM SHRINER, ENGINEERING. I'M THE RIGHT OF WAY INSPECTOR. I'M IN MY 25TH YEAR WORKING WITH THE CITY. I DO NOT LIVE HERE. I HAVE MORE PASSION THAN SOME OF THE PEOPLE THAT WORK AND LIVE HERE FOR THIS CITY, OTHERWISE I WOULDN'T BE HERE. YOU HAVE TO KEEP PEOPLE HERE WHO ARE WORKING HERE AND WANT TO WORK HERE OTHERWISE YOU WILL LOSE ALL YOUR INTELLECT AND ALL OF THE SHORTCUTS THAT WE'VE LEARNED THROUGHOUT THE YEARS.
MY FEAR, PERSONALLY, IN THIS STUDY IS WE'VE ALWAYS HAD THE ABILITY FOR THE DIRECTOR TO GIVE YOU A RAISE IF HE DEEMED IT NECESSARY, OR DEEMED IT -- YOU DESERVE IT.
IN 25 YEARS I HAVE NEVER SEEN THAT DONE.
I'VE SEEN ONE PERSON THAT GOT A TECHNOLOGICAL 10% INCREASE BECAUSE HE'S DOING SOMETHING OUTSIDE OF HIS JOB DESCRIPTION. THERE'S A LOT OF WORK THAT GETS PASSED AROUND TO OTHER PEOPLE TO PICK UP WHERE THE SHORTFALLS ARE, AND IT'S NOT RIGHT TO THEM, AND IT'S NOT RIGHT TO THE OTHER PEOPLE THAT ARE DOING THE WORK TO HAVE TO PICK UP THE SLACK BECAUSE WE DON'T MAYBE HAVE THE NECESSARY MANPOWER TO ACHIEVE THAT AND KEEP OUR INFRASTRUCTURE BELOW GROUND IN GOOD SHAPE.
WE SEE ALL OF THE PAVING AND ALLALL OF CURBS AND GETTING DOWN RIGHT NOW WHICH IS GREAT FOR THE VISIBILITY, BUT EVERYTHING UNDERGROUND NEEDS TO BE MAINTAINED. BACK TO THE SALARY STUDY, I WAS FEARING THE ORIGINAL, AND LIKE I SAID, THE DIRECTOR, IF THEY HAD BUDGET LEFT OVER THEY WERE ABLE TO DISTRIBUTE THAT TO WHOEVER WAS WORTHY OF IT. NEVER SEEN IT.
THAT'S WHAT I'M FEARING WITH THIS, I'M NOW IN THE MIDDLE OF IT, NOT THAT IT WAS CAPPED OUT AND I WOULD BE IN THE 75 PERCENTILE FOR GRADE 11, BUT I JUST WANTED TO PUT IT OUT THAT IT'S JUST A BIGGER CARROT. I'VE NEVER SEEN IT DONE, AND I GUESS, IT'S CONSIDER ME BEING JADED.
>> I HAVE A QUESTION. SO, BUT, IF THERE IS THE -- AUTOMATIC STEP, YOU WOULD START APPROACHING THE HIGHER END.
YOU WOULD HAVE CAPACITY FOR UPWARD MOBILITY, WOULDN'T YOU, OR AM I MISUNDERSTANDING THAT?
>> I CAME OVER AS A BUILDING INSPECTOR. I CAME IN AS A GRADE 11 STEP 2, SO I STARTED AT 2 AND WENT TO 6. I'VE BEEN CAPPED OUT FOR 21 YEARS. A LOT OF YEARS THAT WE NEVER HAD A COLA, BUT WE GOT SOME OF OUR INSURANCE MONEY BACK TOWARD THE END OF THE YEAR WHICH WAS
>> WHEN YOU HAVE OTHER DEPARTMENTS GETTING RAISES AND WE DON'T IT HURTS BECAUSE WE'RE THE GEARSES. IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE GEARS IT WILL FALL APART.
>> SO DO YOU FEEL WITH THE NEW SYSTEM WITH THE HIGHER MAXIMUM RANGE, WOULDN'T YOU WANT YOUR SALARY TO BE ABLE TO GROW THEN, OR ARE YOU -- WHAT IS YOUR CONCERN WITH HAVING THE INCREASED MAXIMUM?
>> I THINK IT'S A FACADE. I REALLY DON'T THINK THAT -- WE HAVE A FIXED INCOME WITH OUR BUDGET. WE DON'T MAKE MONEY, SO THERE'S NO WAY TO JUDGE IF SOMEBODY'S DOING A GREAT JOB AT, YOU KNOW,
[01:20:06]
CHANGING THAT TIRE THERE HASHAS TO BE FOR THAT TO HAVE EFFICACY AND CLOUT TO ACTUALLY SAY THAT YOU, YOUYOU -- IT JUST DOESN'T SEEM LIKE THAT WOULD WORK UNLESS YOU HAVE CLEAR PARAMETERS FOR HOW YOU CAN ACHIEVE THAT.I NEVER HAD A CLEAR OBJECTIVE TO ACHIEVE THAT.
OBJECTIVES ARE GOING BE TOO THE KEY TO THAT, I BELIEVE.
THANK YOU, AND I JUST WANTED TO THANK EVERYBODY FOR GIVING US THE TIME TO AT LEAST EXPRESS OURSELVES ESPECIALLY FOR US THAT DON'T LIVE HERE.
WE REALLY DON'T FEEL WE HAVE A VOICE, AND WE APPRECIATE THAT.
>> JUST, I'M TRYING TO THINK OF HOW THIS COULD HAVE GONE AND WHAT CONVERSATIONS COULD HAVE HAD AND SHOULD HAVE MAYBE BEEN HAD AND WE CAN GO THROUGH THAT. FROM A COUNCIL PERSPECTIVE, WE ARE PART- TIME MICROPHONE PEOPLE.
LIKE, WE CAN WEIGH IN. WE CAN GIVE FEEDBACK.
WE CAN KIND OF SHAPE AN UNDERSTANDING. WE DON'T HAVE ANY AUTHORITY OTHER THAN THE APPROVAL OF THESE THINGS, WHICH TO YOUR POINT IS THE REPRESENT THE LEGISLATOR SET IT UP THIS WAY IS SO THAT WE CAN MITIGATE THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH ACTION TO SET THOSE SALARIES ARBITRARILY. THE REASON IT EXISTS THIS WAY IS TO STOP THAT BEHAVIOR. SO I DO JUST HAVE AN ISSUE WITH THAT TO BECOME THE PROCESS ON ITS FACE, BUT AGAIN, BACK TO, LEAK, COULD THERE HAVE BEEN MORE CONVERSATIONS?
>> COULD WE HAVE BUILT THIS IN A WAY THAT THE STAFF WAS EXCITED AND IT WOULD BE A WONDERFUL WOULD BE GREAT, THIS IS EXCITING. IT WOULD LOU US TO HIRE SMART PEOPLE TO COME IN AND HELP US DO THESE THINGS OR TAKES CARE OF SOMEONE THAT'S BEEN HERE 35 YEARS IN A WAY SO THEY CAN GET COMPENSATED MORE.
WE KNOW WE'RE MOVING IN A DIRECTION WHERE IT'S A POSITIVE THING, BUT WITHOUT PUTTING TOGETHER THAT STRATEGY AND STRUCTURE, HAVING THOSE CONVERSATIONS WITH EVEN THE DIRECTOR LEVEL UNDER WHAT MATT TERMED HIGH BUREAUCRACY, WHATEVER HE CALLED IT. WE'RE MISSING THE UNDERSTANDING AND IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE FOR US TO GET IT, AND THAT BEING SAID, LOOKING -- IT DIDN'T HAVE TO FILL OUT AN HQ.
WE CAN SYMPATHIZE OR EMPATHIZE WITH WHAT THAT FELTFELT LIKE. WILL HEAR ABOUT IT NO MATTER WHAT, AND IT JUST FEELS LIKE WE MISSED THAT WHOLE THING. WHAT I WOULD LOVE IS TO HAVE ANY CONCEPT FOR ME VOTING YES ON THIS IN ANY FORM OTHER THAN KIND OF WHERE IT STANDS UNTIL WE HAVE BETTER CONVERSATIONS ABOUT IT, WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE IMPACT IS. WE NEED PEOPLE TO SAY YES, THAT MAKES SENSE. WE'RE MOVING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION AND ALL OF THIS WORK AND ENERGY TO BRING A CONTRACTOR AND THEN NOT PAY A CONTRACTOR AND FILL THAT WITH EXTRA LABOR HOURS. WE SPENT THEIR 300,000 ON THE HR PROCESS OF DOING THIS FROM THE NUMBER OF HOURS IT TOOK TO LINE UP AND TAKE LETTERS FROM EVERYBODY TO SAVE IN TWO YEARS. SO I JUST THINK, IS THERE A WAY THAT WE CAN HAVE MORE CONVERSATION, AND NOT AT THE LEGISLATIVE LEVEL.
LEAVE US OUT OF IT OR DON'T, BUT, LIKE, WITHIN YOUR DEPARTMENTS, THE CITY STAFF TO FIGURE OUT KIND OF WHERE WE'RE GOING, WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE AND KIND OF TO COME UP WITH A PLAN TO MAKE US BE ABLE TO VETO
SOMETHING. >> COUNTER NUMBER SEVEN, AND SOMEONE WHO HAS FILLED OUT AND BEEN THROUGH THIS PROCESS MULTIPLE TIMES AND THE CORPORATE WORLD AND HAS COMMUNICATED FORFOR US, FOR US IT FELT LEAK AN OPPORTUNITY TO BE COMP CITED MORE. YOU OUT VERY QUICKLY AND YOU CANNOT GET BETTER PAY UNLESS YOU GO TO ANOTHER JOB DESCRIPTION WHICH WOULD BE THE GRADE. SO I'M JUST SO CONFUSED THAT WE'RE TRYING TO INCREASE THE MAXIMUM AMOUNT THAT EMPLOYEES CAN BE PAID, BUT FOR SOME REASON BECAUSE OF THIS PROCESS THERE IS SO MUCH CONFUSION AND FEAR AROUND IT THAT WE CAN FEEL THE TENSION AND THE CONCERN FROM THE PAST. SO THERE WAS SOMETHING VERY, VERY FAULTY IN THE WAY THAT THIS WAS COMMUNICATED AND
[01:25:04]
LET OUT TO THE DEPARTMENTS, YOU KNOW? WHEN WE WOULD GO OUT AS A STAFF WE WOULD HAVE WITH THE MANAGERS AND HR WOULD MEET WITH THE MANAGEMENT TEAM AND THEY WOULD COME INTO OUR OFFICE AND TALK ABOUT IT, AND IT WAS ALWAYS EXCITING WHEN WE WERE GOING THROUGH A -- THIS TYPE OF PROCESS BECAUSE WE ALSO KNEW, GENERALLY, THAT MEANT, BECAUSE WE KNEW WHERE THE MARKET WAS GOING. WE KNEW THE COST OF LIVING WAS INCREASING. WE GENERALLY KNEW THAT MEANT MORE COMP SAGSZ FOR US. SO ARE YOU UNDERSTANDING GETTING JOB, NAMES, ACTRESS AND SO FORTH, BUT SOMEHOW THE WAY IT'S DONE AT THE SAME TIME AND HOW THE CHANGE OF COMPENSATING PUBLIC SAFETY VERSUS STAFF HAS CREATED SO MUCH CLOUT AT THIS PROCESS THATTHAT ARE NOT HAPPY, AND IT'S GOT TO BEI DO THINK THIS IS THE BIGGEST LESSON LEARNED THROUGHOUT THIS WHOLE THING IS TO BETTER COMMUNICATE WITH EMPLOYEES.
I TOOK FOR GRANTED AT THE DIRECTOR LEVEL THAT THERE WERE DIFFERENT WAYS THAT THEY WERE GOING TO TAKE THIS OUT TO THE DIRECTOR, AND I SHOULD HAVE TAKEN MORE OWNERSHIP AND MAYBE TAKING THOSE DEPARTMENT MEETINGS AND TALKING ABOUT IT. WE ANNOUNCED AT THE ALL- EMPLOYEE MEETING THAT MAY NOT HAVE BEEN THE BEST, LIKE, VENUE SINCE THERE WAS A LOT HAPPENING AND IT'S EASY TO MISS ONE PART OF THE ENTIRE THING. SO I ALSO THINK THE TIMING WAS REALLY BAD. IT CAME AT THE SAME TIME WITH ALL OF THE BUDGET STUFF, AND IT CAUSED A LOT OF CONFUSION AND NOW THE INTENT WAS QUESTIONED WHEN IT DID START OUT WITH GOOD INTENTION. I THINK THE RESULTS ARE BETTER FOR EMPLOYEES. I THINK IT WAS A PERFECT STORM OF TIMING AND ME BEING NEW --
>> I THINK IT'S COMPLETELY UNFARE THAT SOMEOE WHO HAS BEEN HERE FOR 15 YEARS IS CAPPED.
IT'S RIDICULOUS. WHEN I FIRST HEARD THIS AT FACE VALUE I WAS EXCITED THAT THE MAXIMUM BAND WAS GOING TO BE EXPANDED. HEY, I KNOW THERE'S PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN HERE FOR A LONG TIME THAT HAVE BEEN STUCK AT THE SAME SALARY FOREVER.
NICOLE -- CAN I CALL YOU NICOLE? OKAY. SO WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE DIRECTOR LEVEL, I'M ASSUMING THAT THERE ARE DIRECTOR MEETINGS, BUT THOSE DIRECTORS REPORT TO SOMEONE HIGHER THAN THAT, RIGHT? HOW CAN WE HAVE THIS MUCH CONFUSION IF THERE'S A MANAGER ABOVE THE DIRECTOR WHO THEN, I'M ASSUMING IS ON YOUR LEVEL, IS THAT CORRECT? OR ARE YOU A DIRECTOR? YOU'RE A DIRECTOR. BEING ON.
SO CAN YOU KIND OF GO THROUGH THAT PROCESS.
HOW DID WE GET SO FAR OFF TRACK WITH ALL THIS MANAGEMENT WE HAVE NOW? I WOULD LIKE TO UNDERSTAND THAT.
>> YEAH. SO WE KEPT DIRECTORS IN THE LOOP EITHER MEETING ONE ON ONE TO TALK ABOUT THEIR SPECIFIC DEPARTMENTS IN RELATION TO THE SALARY STUDY AND THEN UPDATING AT REGULAR DEPARTMENT MEETINGS WHERE WE WERE AT, JUST TO PROCESS ALL OF THAT, AND WHEN WE CAME TO THE END, HOW WE COMMUNICATE WITH EMPLOYEES AND IT WAS THEN THAT IT GOT MESSY BECAUSE TO ZACH'S POINT, WE'VE NOT SURE IF WE CAN COMMUNICATE WITH EMPLOYEES FIRST OR COMMUNICATE WITH THE, AND THE LERTS FELT RUSHLED AND IN THAT WAY TO THE DIRECTORS WHO WOULD BE THE ONES TALKING TO EMPLOYEES ABOUT THE LETTERS. AT THE SAME TIME WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BUDGET CUTS. IT ALL JUST FELT SCARY INSTEAD OF EXCITING. WE DID HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH EMPLOYEES WHO WERE EXCITED ABOUT IT, AND THEY WERE EXCITED TO TELL US WHAT THEY DI.
WE HAD A FEW SHINING MOMENTS WITH EMPLOYEES, AND THEY GOT A CHANCE TO REALLY -- I HATE TO SAY PLEAD THEIR CASE, BECAUSE WE'RE NOT TAKING ANYTHING AWAY AND THERE'S SO MUCH PROUD AND WONDERFUL FOR ME, AS A NEW EMPLOYEE, TO HEAR.
AT THE LAST LEADERSHIP LEVEL LEVEL WAS THE MISSING LINK AND IT JUST CAUSED UNNECESSARY CONFUSION.
SO ALONG WITH THAT CONFUSION, AND YOU'VE GOT TO CORRECT ME NOW IF I DO THIS WRONG, BUT I'M JUST LOOKING AT A GRADE 11 OR EXISTING PAY.
SO SOMEONE COMES IN, THEY START AT 70 GRAND AND THEN FAIRLY QUICKLY, NO.
I'M HEARING FIVE YEARS THEY ARE
[01:30:06]
AT 82, AND ACTUALLY, I WOULD SAY -- YOU SAID GRADE 11, RIGHT, COUNSELOR?>> USING THAT AS AN EXAMPLE. SO SAY SOMEBODY DID COME IN THIS YEAR AS A GRADE 11. ON JANUARY 1ST THAT PERSON WOULD ACTUALLY GO TO A SALARY THAT'S NOT ON HERE TODAY.
THEY WOULD GO TO THE 73551, THAT'S STEP TWO, BUT THEY WOULD ALSO -- WHICH IS A 4% INCREASE, BUT THEY WOULD ALSO GET THE 3% COLA ON TOP
>> SO FUNCTIONALLY, IF YOU TAKE A SCENARIO WHERE FOR FIVE YEARS IN A ROW THERE IS A 3% COLA FROM HIRE TO FIVE YEARS LATER, IT'S A 72% INCREASE ONCE YOU CONSIDER STEP INCREASES, COLA,
SO I'M JUST TRYING TO PUT MYSELF IN THE SHOES OF AN EMPLOYEE GETTING THIS NEW PLAN, AND SO WHAT I ALSO THINK I'VE HEARD A COUPLE OF TIMES IS THAT THE MIDPOINT WOULD BE KIND OF A NORMAL PLACE FOR ME TO THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD NOT LAND.
>> WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE MOVING PEOPLE DOWN --
I'M NOT SAYING THAT. >> IDEALLY YOU WOULD HAVE A BELL-SHAPED CURVE WHERE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN WITH THE CITY FOR A FEW YEARS AND APPROACHING MID POINT. SOMEBODY WHO HAS BEEN HERE FOR A WHILE AND IS IN THE RANGE OF MID POINTE AND THEN SOMEONE WHO HAS SPENT A MUCH LONGERLONGER HERE AND INSTEAD OF HAVING PEOPLE WHO HAVE ONLY BEEN HERE FIVE YEARS MAXED OUT, IDEALLY, IT WOULD BE SOMEBODY WHO HAS BEEN HERE FOR A MUCH LONGER TIME THAT'S REACHING THE FAR END OF THESE RANGES.
>> MAYBE I SHOULD ASK THE QUESTION -- HOW MANY -- WHAT PERCENTAGE OF OUR EMPLOYEES WOULD BE 16 YEARS -- ABOVE AVERAGE FOR OTHER ORGANIZATIONS AND CITIES AND TOWNS.
>> SOMETHING'S WORKING. >> RIGHT.
EXACTLY, BUT NOW THEY'RE ALL STUCK. SO AFTER WE DO THIS NEXT STEP INCREASE NOW WE HAVE 70% THAT ARE MAXED OUT.
70% OF OUR EMPLOYEES. I WOULD LIKE TO FIX THAT AND GIVE THEM ROOM TO DWROE.
>> TO HIS POINT, 21 YEARS IS CRAZY TO ME. I WOULD LIKE TO HELP FIND A SOLUTION FOR THAT.
>> SO IN ORDER FOR YOU TO HELP THEM YOU REALLY WOULD HAVE TO SAY THAT YOU'RE GOING TO GETGET INTO THE 75TH PERCENTILE. IS THAT FAIR?
>> SO IF YOU GO BACK TO THE RECOMMENDATIONS SLIDE -- SO THE BOTTOM TWO BULLET POINTS WE TODAY HAVE NO PERFORMANCE MANAGEMENT. I DON'T FORESEE WHERE IT IS PERFORMANCE÷÷PERFORMANCE DRIVEN. I THINK THERE WILL BE A COUPLED WITH PERFORMANCE PIECE, WHICH I'M A HIGHER PERFORMER, WHICH I HOPE I AM, I WOULD LIKE TO BE REWARDED WITH A PERFORMANCE PIECE, AND WE'RE JUST NOT THERE YET, RIGHT? SO THIS WAS THE BIG HEAVY LEFT.
THE STEP TWO SAID WE LOOKING AT OUR OPTIONS.
THAT'S PART OF THE NEXT STEP, AND AILS, WE HAVE NO FORMALITY HOW PEOPLE MOVE THROUGH STUFF AND THEY SURVIVE ANOTHER YEAR AND THEY MOVE UP.
THAT'S THE ONLY CALL IF IFICATION.
>> OKAY. DO YOU BELIEVE THE EMPLOYEES TRUST THAT THAT WILL BE A FAIR SYSTEM AND WILL SERVE THEM WELL BASED ON THE FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE. WE SEEM TO BE SAYING WE HAVE TO FIX THIS.
>> NO, I DON'T THINK THAT THEY WILL INHERENTLY TRUST IT AND GIVEN THE LESSONS LEARNED FROM THIS EXAMPLE, I WOULD LIKE TO THINK WE'LL DO IT BETTER THE NEXT TIME AROUND AND HOPEFULLY MEETINGS LIKE THIS HELP PEOPLE TRUST THE PROCESS MORE, BUT NO, I DON'T. I THINK IT WILL BE A BIT OF AN UPHILL BATTLE GIVEN WHAT YOU
JUST SAID. >> ZACH, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE EMPLOYEES WOULD AGREE WITH YOU THAT YOU'VE DONE A GREAT
[01:35:01]
JOB WITH THE NEW JOB TITLES?>> SORRY. I DO BELIEVE THAT PROBABLY A MONTH AND A HALF AGO THERE WERE SOME CONCERNS WITH TITLES.
I HAVE NO IDEA HOW MANY MEETINGS THAT HR HAS HAD IN THIS LAST 45 DAYS OR SO SINCE WE INITIALLY STARTED MOVING FORWARD BECAUSE THERE WERE SOME EMPLOYEES THAT WAVED THEIR HANDS AND SAID I DON'T THINK THIS IS RIGHT AND HR HAS MET WITH THOSE AND WHERE -- AND EMPLOYEES CONVINCED HR IN MULTIPLE INSTANCES THAT SOMETHING HAS NOT BEEN CONSIDERED CORRECTLY AND ADJUSTMENTS HAVE BEEN MADE.
>> I'D LIKE TO HEAR FROM EMPLOYEE IF THEY DO AGREE WITH YOUR STATEMENT OR THEY DON'T AGREE WITH YOUR SFAM AND IT'S FEEDBACK THAT I NEED WHILEY HAVE -- YOU DID MAKE A BULLET POINT ABOUT THE COLA LING. MANAGEMENT -- BUT WHAT ARE THE POSITIONS THAT ARE NOT TAKING COLA?
>> YEAH. SEE WHAT I CONSIDER -- THE MAYOR CONSIDERS THIS THE LEADERSHIP. I KIND OF REFER TO IT AS THE CHIEFS JUST BECAUSE IT'S EASIER TO THINK ABOUT THAT WAY, BUT YOU HAVE THE CHIEF OF STAFF AND THE CHIEF FINANCIAL OFFICER, MYSELF, THE CHIEF OF POLICE, THE FIRE CHIEF AND THE CORPORATION
COUNCIL. >> AND THEN -- SO THOSE ARE THE LEADERSHIP TEAM, IF YOU WILL, AND THEN THERE'S AN EXTENDED LEADERSHIP TEAM THAT IS THOSE FOLKS PLUS ALL OF THE OTHER -- YEAH. I WAS TRYING TO THINK OF A NUMBER, EIGHT DEPARTMENTHEADS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
>> SO THE EIGHT DEPARTMENTED HADS HEADS ARE NOT TAKING THE COLA
THAT? >> I KNOW YOU WON'T HAVE IT NOW, BUT JUST EMAIL IT TO ME.
GENERATED BY -- >> THE AD MENTIONED $6,.
I HAVE AN ANSWER FOR THAT. I HAVE ONE MORE, BUT I CAN'T DO IT SO I'LL TURN OVER THE MIKE.
>> FRAZIER JONES, ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT. TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, MR. MORELL, I DO NOT AGREE WITH IT, AND I DON'T THINK IT WAS DONE IN A VERY GOOD JOB, AND I THINK IT COULD HAVE BEEN DONE MUCH BETTER. I'M SPEAKING ON MY BEHALF. I REACHED OUT TODAY TO THE H.R.
DEPARTMENT WHEN THIS FIRST GOT WIND OF WHAT WAS GOING ON, AND SAT DOWN WITH THE DIRECTOR OF HR AND WENT OVER MY CONCERNS WITH MI POSITION.
I'VE NOT HEARD ANYTHING FROM THEM SINCE THAT INITIAL MEETING. SO COMMUNICATION WISE IT'S IN THE TANK, MAN. ANOTHER CONCERN I HAVE IS WE HAVE TWO INDIVIDUALS THAT WENT THROUGH ALMOST 300 EMPLOYEES, THE JACK, WE'LL CALL IT A JACK. I DON'T SEE HOW THAT WAS A GOOD PROCESS THAT THESE TWO INDIVIDUALS COULD LOOK AT MY POSITION AS A WHOLE AND REALLY UNDERSTAND THAT. I'M SPEAKING FOR MYSELF AND THERE ARE A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE THAT PROBABLY FEEL THAT WAY, AS WELL.
JUST THE WHOLE PROCESS AS A WHOLE HAS NOT BEEN COMMUNICATED TO THEIR EMPLOYEES VERY WELL.
IT WAS PUSHED AN INCENTIVE, AND IT TURNS OUT THAT THE AT THAT TIME THAT THE BUDGET WAS PUSHED AND WITH THE BUDGET RESTRAINTS YOU IN, AND IT WAS PUSHED, EVERYBODY'S SALARY STAYED THE SAME MINUS A FEE PEOPLE.
>> TO GO BECOME ON ISSUES THAT I FOUND WERE CORRECT AND THESE HIGHER ED PEOPLE GOT A RAISE IN THE BEGINNING OF THE YEAR.
EVERYBODY ELSE SAW IT. IT WASN'T BROUGHT UP IN THIS MEETING AS MUCH AS IT SHOULD HAVE COME UP AND THAT'S WHY I'M UP HERE. IN THE POSITIONS THAT WE HOLD, IF ANYBODY IN THE OFFICE AND THE CITY ASKS US TO DO SOMETHING THAT'S ABOVE AND BEYOND THE JOB POSITION EVERYONE HERE WILL GO OUT AND DO THAT.
I DON'T KNOW ANYONE THAT WILL SAY NO, BUT IN THAT REGARD, THERE IS A SYSTEM
[01:40:03]
ALREADY IN PAY WITH A PAY MATRIX.WHY AREN'T WE JUST EXTENDING THE PAY MATRIX? I ASKED JACK IN THE SIT DOWN MEETING WITH THE DEPARTMENT, WHY IF YOU WANT TO EXTEND THAT TO GET PEOPLE FURTHER AWAY FROM THE MAX IN, JUST EXTEND THE NORMAL PAY MATRIX AND GO FROM SIX YEARS TO TEN? THAT'S MY OPINION, YOU KNOW, ON -- YOU KNOW, UP FRONT. THAT'S ALL I'VE GOT.
>> THANK YOU. I HAVE A QUESTION FOR LEGAL RELATED WITH THE ORDINANCE. BENJAMIN? SO THE ORDINANCE, SPECIFICALLY, I'M TRYING TO FIND WHERE IT RECOMMENDS THE CHANGE OF THE PROPOSED GRADE AND WAGES FROM THE EXISTING PAY GRADE IN STEPS. THE ORDINANCE DOES INCREASE THE BI-WEEKLY BASED SALARY FOR A GROUP OF POSITIONS UNDERNEATH IT. OBVIOUSLY, IT INCLUDES THE NEW POSITION TITLE, BUT WHERE IN THE ORDINANCE AM I FINDING THAT IT AND RAISES. OSED TO THE GRADES -
>> I'M NOT AN ATTORNEY, BUT I PLAY ONE ON TV.
SO ON LINE 369 WHICH IT'S NOT NUMBERED HERE, BUT --
>> THAT IS WHAT TIES -- THAT IS THE TIE BETWEEN WHAT COUNCIL PASSES AS THE SALARY ORDINANCE AND WHAT EMPLOYEES SEE AND ARE MORE FAMILIAR WITH IN TERMS OF THE PAYMENT GRADE SYSTEM.
>> OKAY. I'M JUST GIVING MY OPINION. I WOULD LIKE TO GET TO INCREASING THE MAXIMUM BIWEEKLY BASE SALARY, BUT AS FAR AS TO HELP THOSE WHO ARE AT THE MAXIMUM OF THEIR RANGE, BUT I THINK THAT THERE'S A LOT OF CONCERN AND DISCUSSION THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN GIVEN WITH THE PROPOSED GRADES AND RANGES MOVING FROM THE EXISTING GRADES AND STEPS.
TO YOUR POINT, YOU KNOW, MAYBE YOU CAN WORK THROUGH SOME OF THESE ISSUES WITH THE TEAM AND HELP EVERYBODY UNDERSTAND, I THINK THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF LACK OF TRUST IF THEY DON'T HAVE THE AUTOMATIC STEP INCREASE IS WHAT I'M FINALLY NOW GETTING IS THE MAXIMUM RANGE HAS AN INCREASE AND HOW WILL THEY EVER GET TO THE POINT OF -- OF -- OF GETTING TO THAT HIGHER END UNTIL YOU HAVE, LIKE, THAT PERFORMANCE MATRIX AND STANDARDS PUT IN PLACE. I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU IMPLEMENT A NEW WAY THAT YOU COMPENSATE PEOPLE WITHOUT MANAGERS AND THEIR TEAMS FULLY KNOWING HOW TO PROVIDE THOSE PERFORMANCE EVALUATIONS. I FIRMLY BELIEVE, AND I DISAGREE WITH THOSE THAT THEIR JOB PERFORMANCE CAN BE EVALUATED, BASED ON KEY SPIKE TO THEIR JOB, BUT THEY HAVE TO BE PART OF THE PROCESS AND THEIR MANAGERS TO EXPLAIN THAT THIS IS THE FORE TORE FUNKS OF THERE JOB, AND THEY HAVE TO BUY INTO THAT, IF ONE PERSON HAS THE INSPECTION OF THE SEWER LINE AND ONE PERSON GOES AND DOESN'T HAVE THE MISSES REGULARLY. THAT'S A KEY PERFORMANCE INDICATOR COMPARED TO THE PERSON ALWAYS FINDING THE PROBLEM, RIGHT? THAT'S WHERE I'M AT WITH THIS.
I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU GUYS ARE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH.
WE WENT THROUGH THIS WITH THE PARKS, BUT I CAN TELL YOU, WHEN WE WENT THROUGH THIS, WE DIDN'T HAVE A BOARDROOM FULL, AND IT IS AT PEAK. SUMMER TIMES ALMOST AS MANY EMPLOYEES AS THE CITY, AND SO, I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF WORK THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.
OTHERWISE, NOT ONLY BECAUSE WHETHER OR NOT WARE GO, AND THE, AND THE RELATIONSHIP WILL BE SUCH THAT IT WILL BE HARD TO EVERCOME IN THE FUTURE.
COUNSELOR LOTT? >> I JUST TOET RATE.
[01:45:07]
I'M WATCHED THIS FOR A DECADE AND THERE IS A WAY TO DO THIS RIGHT AND WE AS THE LEGISLATIVE BODY CAN ALWAYS BE THE BAD GUY AND ANOTHER BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT, BUT FIND THAT MIDDLE GROUND. TAKE THAT OWNERSHIP AND TAKE THE TEAM ASPECT OF THIS DOWN A LEVEL, TWO LEVELS, THREE LEVELS AND START COMMUNICATING WITH THEM. YOU NEVER HAVE TO PROMISE ME ANSWERS IMMEDIATELY. I WILL GET THEM HOWEVER I FIND THEM. IT'S A PROMISE FOREVER, BUT, LIKE, LET'S GO BACK AND HAVE THOSE CONVERSATIONS AND GOING FORWARD, IT'S DISENFRANCHISING AS A HUMAN TO DO SOMETHING THAT YOU LOVE, DO IT FOR LESS IN THE PUBLIC SPHERE, BUT YOU TAKE THAT HIT BECAUSE WHAT YOU'RE DOING MATTERS AND WHAT YOU SEE IS OUTCOME AND YOU SEE WHAT IT DOES FOR THE PEOPLE THAT YOU'RE SERVING, AND I LOOK AT THIS SPREADSHEET, AND THERE ARE 270 PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN WITH THE CITY SINCE 2011 OR BEFORE WHICH IS AMAZING.>> SOME PEOPLE GETTING TO THE FIVE YEAR MAX AND GETTING TO THE 5% IS ENOUGH TO DO WHAT THEY DO BECAUSE WE WENT UNDER THE PRESUMPTION ON THE FRONT END AND WE PAY MORE BECAUSE THIS IS MORE THAN WHAT THEY'LL GET SOMEWHERE ELSE AND IT'S A LABOR OF LOVE AND CONVICTION, AND YOU GUYS ARE NEW TO THE CITY, AND THAT'S SOMETHING WE CAN'T CHANGE, BUT I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND AND LOVE THE CITY AS MUCH OR STARTING TO IN YOUR ROLE BECAUSE IT'S AWESOME AND IT'S BEAUTIFUL, AND THE FACT THAT YOU GET HERE TO LEARN, AND I APOLOGIZE FOR SOME OF IT MYSELF, BECAUSE IT IS SO SPECIAL. SO DON'T FORGET THEM IN YOUR THOUGHT PROCESS AND THEY'LL BE HERE LONGER THAN ALL OF US AND THE TOP LEADERSHIP TEAMS WILL SHIFT AND THEY'LL CHANGE AT SOME POINT AND MAYBE WE'RE PAST THAT AND WE'VE BEEN POLITICAL IN AND OUT÷÷ LIKE WE SEE IN THE STATE AND THAT'S THE GAME.
HOW DO WE LOOK AT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE PERFORMING THE SERVICES TO THE CITY THAT MAKE THE CITY HAPPEN ARE COMFORTABLE? THIS IS THE FIRST TIME WE'VE BEEN THROUGH ANY OF IT BECAUSE IT'S THE FIRST TIME WE'VE HAD A TRANSITION OF AN EXECUTIVE IN THREE DECADES. THAT'S CRAZY. SO WE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE THAT RIGHT AND MAKE AMENDS. I KNOW YOU'RE GOOD PEOPLE.
WE KNOW THAT. EVEN THE STAFF KNOWS THAT OR WE WOULDN'T BE HERE YOU'LL GET UPDATES MONTHLY AND AT SOME POINT WE DECIDED WE WERE TOO,A TRADE, TOO SCARED AND THEN I SENT IMY QUICK, HEY, WE'RE LEARNING AND ON THE 8TH EVERYBODY GOT A LETTER THAT THEY HAD TO SIGN OFF FOR. I'M CULPABLE AND I JUMPED IN AND IT'S SCARY WHEN THE COUNCIL IS TRYING TO GET INFORMATION EARLY AND HOW DO WE GET IT OUT BEFORE? IT'S ALL ABOUT HOW DO WE COMMUNICATE BETTER TOGETHER TO MAKE THIS WHAT IT NEEDS TO BE, AND I DON'T KNOW THAT THIS HONESTLY IS FAR OFF.
I DO THINK THAT PEOPLE WHO WANT TO FIGHT FOR THEIR JOB DESCRIPTIONS THIS DO THAT AND IN SOME CASES THOSE CAN BE ARBITRARY BECAUSE WE'RE NOT 30,000 PEOPLE. IF SOMEONE WANTS TO BE CALLED THE CHIEF MECHANIC OF NOON VEHICLES, AND THEY'LL NUMBER THAT JOB FOR 30 YEARS AND MAKE SURE THAT OUR FIRE TRUCKS ARE GRATE, AND WITHIN REASON. THAT'S PROBABLY THE WRONG TITLE, BUT LET'S COMMUNICATE AND TAKE THIS AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO DO THAT MOVING FORWARD AND GET TO A POINT WHERE WE CANCAN HAVE THAT WORKS FOR EVERYBODY, AND NOT EVERYBODY, BUT FOR THE COLLECTIVE GROUPS THAT ARE HERE IN A WAY THAT WE CAN MOVE FORWARD, AND NEXT TIME. THAT'S MY CALL TO ACTION. I'M NOT DISHEARTENED BY THE WORK YOU'VE DONE AND I'M NOT DISHEARTENED FOR STAFF SHOWING UP FOR A MEETING AND I KEEP TRYING TO HOLD TEARS BACK.
THIS IS WHY WE'RE HERE AND WHAT GOVERNMENT IS FOR, SO LET'S JUST DO A BETTER JOB OF MAKING SURE WE'RE ALL ON THE SAME PAGE AND WE GET THE STREETS PLOWED IF WE NEED TO WITH
>> SO I'M GOING TO ACTUALLY MAYBE JUST ADD MY TWO CENTSCENTS FROM LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE. FIRST OF ALL, I WANT TO TALK
[01:50:10]
TO YOU -- YOU BEING HERE IS A STATEMENT AND IT CONCERNS ME, BUT I'M ALSO GRATEFUL FOR IT. I'VE BEEN SITTING HERE THINKING WHAT DO I TAKE AWAY FROM THIS, AND I THINK WHAT I WANT TO GET OUT IN THE OPEN IS THAT FOR, WE ARE TREATING THE CITY OF CARMEL AS A CORPORATION, AND WE'RE LOOKING TO SAVE MONEY AND BE MORE EFFICIENT AND CUT THIS, AND I'M TELLING YOU, WHEN THERE'S A FIRE AND THE FIRE DEPARTMENT LEAVES THERE ARE OTHER EMPLOYEES WHO ARE THERE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT HELPING WITH THAT RESIDENT PUT THEIR HOME BACK TOGETHER OR GET SHELTER. THERE IS JUST NO ONE IN THIS CITY THAT DOESN'T GO THE EXTRA MILE AND HOW DID WE GET THAT? IT'S A CULTURE, AND I FEAR THAT WE'RE LOSING THE CULTURE BECAUSE WE WANT TO DEAL WITH KPIS AND WEWE TO DEAL WITH MBO AND ALL OF THE JARGON. I'M FEARFUL RIGHT NOW AS TO WHERE WE'RE GOING.I LOOK TO YOU, NICOLE, AS PLEASE, KEEP THAT IN MIND AS YOU DO WHAT I KNOW YOU HAVE TO DO.
I THINK WE'RE, FRANKLY, TOP HEAVY IN THIS CITY RIGHT NOW, AND IT IS -- IT'S HARD TO TALK ABOUT BECAUSE EVERYBODY IS GOOD, BUT IT'S HARD TO TALK ABOUT, BUT I HOPE YOU CAN DISAGREE WITHOUT GETTING MAD AND WITHOUT FIGHTING, BUT THIS -- THE CULTURE, A TREE CANOPY FROM AN URBAN FORESTER OR SOMEONE WHO IS EVALUATING BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE AND CARES ABOUT A LANDSCAPE PLAN VERSUS SOMEBODY IN A CUBICLE IN SOME CONSULTANT OFFICE. THE EMPLOYEES ARE WHAT HAS GOTTEN US THIS FAR. THE POINT IS THAT WE HAVE BEEN HERE FOR MORE THAN IS NORMAL AS WE'VE LEARNED TONIGHT, AND YOU KNOW, I WANT TO SAY THANK YOU, AND I HOPE WE -- I HOPE WE CAN KEEP THAT GOING, COMPENSATE YOU APPROPRIATELY, DO WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO BE GOOD STEWARDS OF THE TAXPAYERS' DOLLARS, BUT MAN, I HAVE SEEN ABOVE AND BEYOND DURING MY 40 YEARS HERE, AND I JUST -- I DON'T WANT TO LOSE IT. SO, ANYWAY, THAT'S -- SO I CAN'T DO ANYTHING WITH THIS EXCEPT MAYBE CUT A COUPLE OF POSITIONS THAT AREN'T FILLED, BUT I WANT TO GET FEEDBACK, AND THERE'S MORE WORK TO DO.
>> THANK YOU, COUNSELOR. MY RECOMMENDATION IS WE HOLD THIS OVER FOR NEXT MEETING TO SEE HOW THE TEAM WANTS TO ADDRESS IT.
PERSONALLY, WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IS MAYBE YOU TAKE THE FIRST QUARTER OF NEXT YEAR, WORK ON MAKING SURE YOU GET THE TITLES EXACTLY RIGHT, GETTING THE BUY IN AND GETTING THE BUY IN ON THE PROCESS AND COMING UP WITH A PERFORMANCE MANAGEMENT PLAN THAT INCLUDES 360 FEEDBACK FROM EMPLOYEES. SO THEY'RE BOUGHT INTO THE PROCESS. WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO MAYBE LIKE AT DOING FOR THE ORDINANCE THIS YEAR, IF IT DOESN'T INCLUDE SALARY.
SAY WE REMOVE THE CHANGE PIECE AND WE MOVE THE TITLES BECAUSE WE'VE NOW HEARD FROM OTHER PEOPLE THAT THEY DON'T BELIEVE THEIR TITLES DON'T MATCH, AND WE HAVE A DECENT REPRESENTATION FROM STAFF HERE.
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IF WE COULD MOVE AT SOME POINT THE MAXIMUM BIWEEKLY-BASED SALARIES BECAUSE, AS WE KNOW, THERE AREAL READY PEOPLE WHO ARE AT THE MAX FOR THEIR SALARIES, AND IT WOULD BE NICE IF THEY COULD HAVEHAVE INCREASE ESPECIALLY IF THEY'VE BEEN SITTING FOR 20- SOME YEARS AND NOT HAVE AN INCREASE. SO, PERSONALLY, THAT'S THE PIECE THAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE ASSUMING WITHIN BUDGET
CONSTRAIN, RIGHT? >> COUNSELOR, I JUST WANTED TO MENTION AND I DON'T DISAGREE WITH MOST OF THE COMMENTS MADE TONIGHT AND JUST GIVEN THE
[01:55:03]
TIMING WE ARE NOW MOVING INTO -- ESSENTIALLY BY THE END OF THE WEEK I NEED TO HAVE A NEW SALARY ORDINANCE FOR COUNCIL FOR NEXT YEAR.I DON'T KNOW THAT IT MAKES SENSE FOR US TO HAVE KIND OF TWO SALARY ORDINANCES BOTH MOVING FORWARD AND ONE FOR 2025 AND THEN ONE ALSO FOR 2026 AND WHICH ONE PASSES FIRSTFIRST OR WHATEVER. SO I THINK GIVEN THAT YOU'RE NOT MOVING IT FORWARD TODAY, I THINK WE KIND OF -- WE DON'T NECESSARILY DROP THE CONTENT, I THINK WE NOW -- IT REALLY IS BECOMING THE 2026 AND WE WON'T MAKE ANY ATTEMPT ON THE -- TO CHANGE THE STEP AND GRADE PART AS WE HEAD INTO 2026, BUT WE'LL KEEP THAT WITHIN THE ORDINANCE, BUT I THINK IN TERMS OF, AGAIN, JUST TALKING ABOUT IT NOW THE REVISION TO THE 2025 -- THAT'S PROBABLY DEAD AND GOING FORWARD IT'S JUST WHAT'S THE 2026
SALARY? >> THERE ARE TWO WAYS WE CAN HANDLE IT. WE CAN TAKE A MOTION TO PASS IT AND SEND IT TOED 6TH AND THE COUNCIL CAN VOTE IT UP, VOTE IT DOWN AND WE CAN START WITH A FRESH ORDINANCE, OR YOU CAN BE GINN OF ARC MENDING THE PROCESS OF THAT ORDINANCE.
>> DO YOU WANT TO PROVIDE GUIDANCE
YOU'VE GOT THE 2026 SALARY ORDINANCE THAT NEEDS TO COME AND BE APPROVED BY THE NOVEMBER 11ST DEADLINE, OTHERWISE THEN WHAT HAPPENS IS YOU JUST HAVE THE SALARY ORDINANCE FROM 2025, SO THE TIMING OF IT IS REALLY TIGHT, AND I THINK THAT WHAT YOU'RE PROPOSING IS BEING SUGGESTED BY ZACK, IT WOULD BE A NEGATIVE RECOMMENDATION FROM THIS COMMITTEE TO STAND BACK TO THEM TO ALLOW FOR WHAT HAS BEEN THE DISCUSSION AND FEEDBACK FROM THIS COUNCIL ON IT BECAUSE SUBSTANTIALLY, I IMAGINE THEY WOULD BE SIMILAR BASED ON HOW CLOSE THEY ARE IN TIME TO HOW THEY'RE INCORPORATED INTO 2026.
>> SO WE SEND THIS BACK ON THE 6TH, NEGATIVE RECOMMENDATION AND GET THE VOTE DOWN ON THE COUNCIL AND IN THE MEANTIME ZACH IS WORKING FOR A NEW ORDINANCE TO INCLUDE OFT 6TH.
>> YEAH. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A NEGATIVE RECOMMENDATION, YOU CAN HAVE AA MOTION DRAWN, AS WELL, IF YOU DIDN'T WANT TO TAKE ANYTHING ON IT AS A NEGATIVE STANDPOINT CONSIDERING THAT YOU WOULD HAVE THE 2026 SALARY ORDINANCE, AS WELL.
>> I WOULD RECOMMEND MAYBE TAKING A STANCE ON THIS, WHETHER POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE, COULD LEAD INTO THE DISCUSSION OF WHAT WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE DIFFERENT IN THE 2026 VERSION.
SO IF IT WAS NEGATIVE, THEN IT SAYS YOU BRING BACK THE EXACT SAME THING IN 2026, THEN --
>> I DON'T LIKE SENDING STUFF BACK OUT WITHOUT DOING OUR JOB.
I HATE IT WHEN THE PLANNING COMMISSION DOES THAT
>> SO I, WITH THE CHAIR, ENTERTAIN A
YES, SIR? >> I WOULD MAKE A MOTION THAT WE -- WELL, TILLY, I WANT TO MAKE A MOTION POSITIVE OR CAN I -- AND THAT WE VOTE AGAINST IT OR CAN I SAY SEND IT BACK WITH A NEGATIVE RECOMMENDATION.
>> YOU WOULD HAVE A MOTION FOR A NEGATIVE RECOMMENDATION AND THEN WE WOULD VOTE FOR THAT?
>> I WOULD MAKE A MOTION TO RETURN THIS TO COUNCIL WITH A NEGATIVE RECOMMENDATION.
>> SECOND. >> WE HAVE A MOTION AND WE HAVE A SECOND.
DISCUSSION? >> ONE QUESTION ON THAT.
BEING THAT THIS WOULD END THE DISCUSSION ON THE 2025 SALARY ORDINANCE CHANGES FOR THE LAST QUARTER OF THIS YEAR, DOES THAT HAVE A FISCAL IMPACT ON THIS YEAR'S FINANCIAL PROCESS BY NOT MAKING THESE CHANGES OR ADOPTING THESE CHANGES NEXT YEAR?
>> I DON'T BELIEVE THERE ARE REPERCUSSIONS. I MEAN, THE ONLY FINANCIAL IMPACT I WAS THINKING OF IS THE FOLKS THAT WE HAD IDENTIFIED THAT WOULD BE MOVING UP AA GRADE. IT WAS DEPENDING UPON THE TIMING OF PASSAGE WHEN THEY MIGHT RECEIVE AN UPGRADE OR INCREASE THIS YEAR, BUT THAT WOULD BE THE ONLY RAMIFICATION IS THAT IFIF COUNCIL OR IF COUNCIL GETS COMFORTABLE WITH THE 2026 IS IN
[02:00:03]
EFFECT AS OPPOSED TO EARLIER.>> DO WE HAVE A MOTION TO MOVE THIS TO THE COUNCIL WITH A NEGATIVE RECOMMENDATION, PLEASE VOTE.
ALL RIGHT. MOTION CARRIES UNANIMOUSLY.
>> THE NEXT MEETING YOU HAVE WOULD BE SCHEDULD OCTOBER 6TH
THAT WOULD BE THE NIGHT THAT THE BUDGET IS INTRODUCED ON THE COUNCIL AGENDA. WE HAD A MEETING, EXECUTIVE SESSION SCHEDULE WOULD FOR 4:30 AND I RECOMMEND WE POSTPONE THAT TO GIVE YOU AS MUCH TIME AS YOU NEED PRIOR TO THE 6:00 MEETING AND THAT WAY YOU'RE NOT AS
>> WE WILL THEN NOT ADDRESS THE OTHER ITEMS ON THE AGENDA TONIGHT UNLESS WE WANTED TO TAKE UP THE COUNCIL -- COUNSELOR LOCKE UNLESS WE WANT TO TAKE UP THE COMMISSION ITEM, ORDINANCE
D-25. >> I DON'T WANT TO, BUT I WILL.
* This transcript was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.