[A. Call to Order]
[E. Approval of Minutes and Findings of Facts of Previous Meetings]
[G. Reports, Announcements, Legal Counsel Report, and Department Concerns]
[00:01:26]
>> THE REQUEST TO SUSPEND BZA RULES AND PROCEDURE FOR HEARING OFFICER DOCKET NUMBER IS THAT ON OUR AGENDA
TONIGHT ANGIE? >> YES TWO ITEMS I WANT TO TALK ABOUT. ONES FOR THE JACONS FENCE HEIGHT VARIANCE BEING HEARD AT THE BZA HEARING OFFICER.
IT'S BEEN TABLED AT LEAST TWO OR THREE TIMES.
WE HAVEN'T HAD ANY RESPONSES BACK PER E-MAIL.
WE WERE LOOKING TO WITHDRAWAL THE PETITION.
>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE HEIGHT VARIANCE ONLY.
THEN NUMBER TWO SUSPEND RULES OF PROCEDURE THAT HAD ONE SMALL MISTAKE IN THEY WERE ABLE TO CORRECT IT.
I THINK AT LEAST SIX DAY PRIOR TO THE MEETING.
EVERYTHING ELSE WAS CORRECT. WE'RE ASKING FOR THAT SLIGHT
RULE SUSPENSION THERE. >> THOSE TWO ITEMS.
IS THERE A MOTION TO SUSPEND OUR RULES WITH REGARDS TO THE LACK OF PROSECUTION JACOBS FENCE HEIGHT VARIANCE AND REQUEST TO SUSPEND RULES WITH REGARDS TO THE MOUNT
>> MR. PRESIDENT IF I COULD. WHAT ACTION REQUIRED BY THE BOARD TO WITHDRAWAL A PETITION?
>> I THINK IT'S JUST TAKING A VOTE TO WITHDRAWAL IT DUE
TO LACK OF PROSECUTION. >> CAN WE WITHDRAWAL IT WHEN IT WAS FILED BY THE PETITIONER?
YES. >> FOR THE BZA RULES OF PROCEDURE. IF A PETITIONER DOESN'T TAKE ACTION. THE BOARD CAN VOTE TO WITHDRAWAL IT FROM THE AGENDA.
>> OKAY. >> THEN I WILL MOVE TO WITHDRAWAL FROM OUR DOCKET DOCKET PZ-2021 WITH REGARD PUBLIC NOTICE. FOR DOCKET PZ-202100144A.
>> SECOND. >> MOVED AND SECONDED.
ALL THOSE IN FAVOR OF THE TWO MOTIONS SAY "AYE"?
>> WE HAVE ONE PUBLIC HEARING ON OUR AGENDA
TONIGHT. >> MR. PRESIDENT APOLOGIZE.
ITEM NO. 3 UNDER RECOLLECTS. BZA RULES OF PROCEDURE
THAT'S TO SUSPEND RULES IN ORDER TO ACT ON THAT.
IS THAT WHAT YOU ARE ASKING? >> THIS IS PROPOSED AMENDMENT TO BZA RULES OF PROCEDURE THEMSELVES.
I BELIEVE THEY RECIRCULATED ABOUT THE WEEK AGO.
IT'S IN REGARDS TO CERTIFICATION OF FINDINGS OF FACT 30 DAYS PAST THE HEARING RESULTING IN DENIAL
OR APPROVAL. >> YOU ARE ASKING FOR US TO
VOTE ON THAT. >> THAT'S CORRECT.
>> OKAY. BZA RULES OF PROCEDURE PROPOSED AMENDMENT. THAT WAS DISTRIBUTED BY MR. REECE. IS THERE ANY QUESTIONS WITH REGARD TO THIS AND IS THERE A MOTION TO ACT ON THIS.
>> I WILL MAKE A MOTION TO ABILITY ON IT.
AND ADOPT THE PROPOSED AMENDMENT.
[00:05:06]
>> SECOND. >> MOVED AND SECONDED.
WE ACT ON THIS TONIGHT ALL THOSE IN FAVOR OF THE MOTION SAY "AYE." .
HEARING NONE. IT'S BEEN APPROVED.
[Items H.1. - H.6. ]
>> WE HAVE ONE TONIGHT. THE APPLICANT SEEKS THE FOLLOWING DEVELOPMENT STANDARD VARIANCE APPROVAL FOR NEW HOME. DOCKET NUMBER PZ-2021-00154V LOT COVERAGE MAXIMUM 45% LOT COVER REQUIRED, 53% REQUESTED. DOCKET NUMBER # ASK-2021-00155V. GARAGE SET BACK THE FRONT FACE OF THE GARAGE MUST BE AT LEAST 15 FEET FURTHER FROM THE FRONT LOT LINE THAN THE PRIMARY FRONT LINE OF PRINCIPAL BUILDING. 0-FEET FURTHER REQUESTED.
GARAGE DOOR ORIENTATION. THREE CAR GARAGES SHALL ONLY BE PERMITTED WHERE THE OVERHEAD DOOR ARE ORIENT AID WAY FROM FRONT YARD OR FACING AN ALLEY.
FACING THE STREET REQUESTED. DOCKET NUMBER PZ-2021-00157S. DRIVEWAY WIDTH IN THE FRONT YARD DRIVEWAY WITHTH CANNOT EXCEED 18 FEET.
GREATER THAN 22 FEET WIDTH REQUESTED.
WINDOW WELLS CANNOT PROJECT MORE THAN 24 INCHES INTO A REQUIRED YARD. 42 REQUESTED.
DOCKET PZ-2021-00159. V, MAXIMUM 30 NEAT BUILDING HEIGHT ALLOWED 31 FEAT 9 AND 3/7 REQUESTED.
THE SITE LOCATED 14 # 1 FIST AVENUE NY.
IT'S ZONED R4 RESIDENCE AND OLD TOWN OVERLAY CHARACTER SUBAREA. FILED BY JOHN LEFTON ON THE OLD TOWN DESIGN GROUP ON THE BEHALF OF PAUL M. THEFT TRUSTEE ANGIE H. THRIFT REVOKABLE TRUST.
GO RIGHT AHEAD. >> GOOD EVENING.
JUSTIN MOFFETT ON BEHALF OF OLD TOWN DESIGNING GROUP.
I'M SORRY ALL OF YOU HAD TOW SHOW UP FOR ONE ITEM TONIGHT. THIS IMPORTANT TO OUR CLIENTS. THERE'S A LOT OF INFORMATION HERE. AND HOPEFULLY I CAN MAKE SENSE OF IT. I HAVE A FEW DIAGRAMS AND SOME BACK UP DATA AND SO HOPEFULLY I CAN MAKE SENSE OF ALL THIS THAT I INTEND TO SHARE WITH YOU TONIGHT.
I DON'T KNOW GO OVER WHAT ALLEN SHARED WITH YOU AS FAR AS VARIANCE REQUEST. I WILL BREAK THEM DOWN ITEM BY ITEM. EACH HAVE THEIR OWN NUANCE.
ULTIMATELY THERE ARE THREE THE FIRST ONE AND THE LAST TWO ON THIS LIST THAT ARE PRETTY TYPICAL OF EVERYTHING BUILT IN DOWNTOWN CARMEL WHETHER BY OLD TOWN OR ANY OTHER BUILDER BASED ON HOW THE OVERLAY ZONE IS WRITTEN.
THE OTHER THREE I WOULD SAY IS KIND OF NEW TERRITORY.
DOCS TO AMENDMENT -- WHEN WE WENT TO UDO, THERE'S SOME CHANGE IN LANGUAGE. I HAVEN'T HAD THIS PARTICULAR VARIANCE NEED FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS.
PROBABLY FIVE OR SIX YEARS. WE THINK IT'S A REASONABLE REQUEST. BUT I WANT TO SHARE THE INFORMATION. AND HOPEFULLY HAVE SUPPORT FOR THAT, THE GARAGE RELATED VARIANCES.
AND THE TOP RIGHT IMAGE WHERE THE STAR IS, IS THE SUBJECT PROPERTY. IT'S THE CORNER FIRST OF NORTHWEST AND SECOND STREET NORTHWEST.
WE HAVE TO TACKLE THEM ONE BY ONE HERE.
IF YOU HAVE HEARD ME, IF YOU BEEN TO BZA HEARING OFFICER MEETINGS, PROBABLY NO LESS THAN 50 TIMES.
MY ARGUMENT HERE FOR THE LOT COVERAGE IS THAT OUR PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY IN THE LANGUAGE OF THE CURRENT UDO, ALL IMPERVIOUS SURFACES COUNTED IN THE ORDINANCE AS FAR AS LOT COVERAGE. WHEN WE FIRST STARTED BUILDING HOMES IN OLD TOWN AREA.
THAT WAS NOT THE CASE SO THE 45% MAX AND OVERLAY DID NOT INCLUDE DRIVEWAY, SIDEWALKS PATIOS, ET CETERA.
THE DRIVEWAY ALONE ON THIS PLAN ENCOMPASSES ENOUGH IF
[00:10:02]
WE REMOVE THE DRIVEWAY WE'RE DOWN TO 45% MARK.WE'RE ASKING 53% LOT COVERAGE.
AND I THINK EVERY BILL THAT WE HAVE DONE IN OTHER BUILDERS HAVE DONE IN THE LAST FEW YEARS HAS NECESSITATED THIS SORT OF VARIANCE.
I WOULD CONSIDER THIS STRAIGHT FORWARD.
AND JUST SAYS REMINDER, CARMEL HAS INITIATED THE STORMWATER FUND TO WHEN WE APPLY FOR THIS VARIANCE WE KICK IN 6,000 AS THE STANDARD IN ORDER TO USE THIS THE PRIVILEGE OF THIS VARIANCE.
THE NEXT THREE ARE THE BIG ONES THAT I THINK ARE REALLY THE DEBATE TONIGHT. THAT ARE RELATED TO GARAGE DOOR ORIENTATION SET BACKS. IN THE NEW UDO, IT'S A COUPLE OF YEARS OLD NOW. BASICALLY THERE'S PROHIBITION AGAINST THREE CAR GARAGES THAT FACE FRONT YARDS. CORNER LOTS HAVE FRONT YARDS. BOTH THE FIRST AVENUE SITE OF THE HOME, WHICH IS THE TRUE FRONT DOOR ALL THE HOMES ON FIRST ARE ORIENTED. NOW IT'S SECOND STREET UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCE HAS A FRONT DOOR.
I WILL TACKLE THESE ONE BY ONE.
THEY ARE REALLY A PACKAGE DEAL.
AND I'M GOING TO START WITH JUST A LITTLE BIT EXPLANATION AND AGAIN FORGIVE ME FOR THE DIAGRAM.
I TRIED TO PUT IT IN YOUR PACKET SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT WE ARE DEALING WITH.
THIS GOOGLE EARTH IMAGE OF OLD TOWN CARMEL.
THERE'S EAST WEST ALLEY AND NORTH SOUTH ALLIES.
EVERYWHERE IT'S POSSIBLE TO PUT AN ALLEY IN AND PAVE TO IT TO BUILD WE DO THAT. AT GREAT EXPENSE SOMETIMES TO US WE'VE LITERALLY PAVED THE WAY FOR OTHER PEOPLE WHO OWNED LOTS AND BUILT SO WE COULD GET ACCESS TO OUR CLIENT'S LOT. WE ARE NEVER OPPOSED TO BUILD PAVING AN ALLEY ORIENTED THREE-CAR GARAGE TOWARD AN ALLEY WHEN THE CIRCUMSTANCE ALLOWS FOR US.
IN JUST ABOUT EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE THERE'S -- YOU CAN GET A ACCESS TO ALLEY. ACCEPT THIS SECTION FROM REALLY MAIN STREET UP TO EIGHTH STREET.
SMOKEY RIVER ROAD BETWEEN FIRST AVENUE NORTHWEST THERE'S SO MANY UTILITIES IN THAT CORRIDOR AND SO MANY IN ENIM ENIMCOUPLE -- INCUMBRENCES. IN THIS SECTION NO ALLEY.
THERE'S NOT AN ABILITY TO PAVE THAT ALLEY BECAUSE AN EASEMENT ISSUE. TOO MANY UTILITIES.
FURTHER ON THIS PARTICULAR CASE.
I PROVIDE AN IMAGE HERE IN THE MIDDLE THROUGH THE MIDDLE. THIS WHAT WE LOOK AT.
IF WE PROPOSED HOME SITS TO RIGHT OF THIS ALLEY.
THIS IS WHAT I'M LOOKING AT HERE IS THIS RIGHT HERE.
THAT LIGHT POLE IS NOT AN IMPEDIMENT.
WATER AND SEWER, I THINK WATER LIVES IN THIS ALLEY.
BUT THE BIG CHALLENGE THAT WE FACE WITH THIS CIRCUMSTANCE SEE THIS POLE HERE'S THIS TRANSMISSION LINE POLE. CARMEL IN A PREJEKT TO REPLACE THE TRANSMISSION AS THE BIG DUCK BANK BURY.
OVER HERE, THIS AGAIN SUBJECT PROPERTY RIGHT HERE THEY WILL REPLACE THESE POLES WITH LARGER 45-TALL POLES AND WIDER POLES AND I HAVE BEEN IN A SITUATION LAST COUPLE OF YEARS THEY KEEP GETTING THE EASEMENT FROM US. WE GIVE THEM FOR A 1 1/2.
THEN WE GIVE A NEW EASEMENT. THEY ARE GOING TO BE REPLACING THESE POLES IN THIS ALLEY.
THEY WILL BE WORKING ALLEY. WE HAVE A GENERAL IDEA WHERE THEY WILL BE PLACED. IT'S A REAL IMPEDIMENT TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO LOCATE A GARAGE.
WE WOULD HAVE TO CALCULATE WHERE THEY WANT TO PUT THEIR POLES FOR THESE TRANSMISSION LINES.
ALREADY THERE'S NO CIRCUMSTANCE IN OLD TOWN CARMEL WHERE THE ALLEY IS GETTING USED.
AND THEN WE ADD IN THIS LAYER OF UNCERTAINTY OF THIS TRANSMISSION LINE PROJECT THAT'S HAPPENING IN THE NEXT FEW YEARS. CREATES A CHALLENGE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO ADVICE A CLIENT TO ACCESS A THREE-CAR GARAGE. AGAIN WE'RE REALLY STANDING AT THAT ALLEY SECTION. TOP LEFT IS LOOKING AT THAT ALLEY SECTION WHERE THE NEW TRANSMISSION POLES WILL GO.
TOP RIGHT IS IF WE TURNED 90 DEGREES FACING WEST WHAT YOU SEE THERE. TOP RIGHT PICTURE ON THE LEFT-HAND SIDE OF THAT WOULD BE THIS PROPOSED HOME.
THEN WE TURN ANOTHER I GUESS 180 DEGREES AROUND AND LOOKED DUE EAST TOWARD RANGE LINE ROAD, YOU SEE COMMERCIAL STRUCTURES. AND I THINK IS IMPORTANT
[00:15:02]
BECAUSE THIS PROPOSAL IS NOT BREAKING SOME CADENCE OF PRESTINE STREET FRONT WHERE WE HAVE SIDEWALK.TREE LINE, ET CETERA. IT'S FULL IMPERVIOUS SURFACE. PARKING TO THE STREET.
WITH SOME SIDEWALKS AND THEN WE HAVE RESIDENTIAL IMMEDIATELY WEST OF THAT. I GUESS -- I WOULD ACKNOWLEDGE THAT MY PREFERENCE WOULD BE UTOPIAN.
UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES IT'S CHALLENGING.
I WANT TO GIVE PERSPECTIVE OF WHAT WE FACE IN EACH DIRECTION FROM THE PROPERTY. VERY SPECIFICALLY THE GARAGE SET BACK. THE FIRST ONE 15 FEET FROM THE FRONT FACE OF THE HOUSE. THE IMAGE UP TOP IS BLACK BALLPARK SUBDIVISION DOWNTOWN CARMEL WHERE WE TRIED TO HAVE THE FRONT FACE THE HOME SIT OUT 15 FEET IN FRONT OF THE GARAGE FACE. WE TRIED -- EVERYWHERE WE BUILD EVEN WHEN NOT REQUIREMENT.
I APPRECIATE STAFF PUSHING THAT ON TEN OR 15 YEARS AGO WHEN WE STARTED BILLING. WE TRY TO HONOR THAT BECAUSE WE FEEL LIKE IT MAKES BETTER STREETSCAPE.
THE REALITY IS THAT THIS IS SIDE ELEVATION.
FOR UDO IT HAS TWO FRONT FACES BUT THIS IS SIDE ELEVATION IN THE TRUE FRONT FACES FIRST AVENUE NORTHWEST. WE HAVE A LOT OF ARTICULATION. IT'S NOT A FLAT FACED.
WE DON'T FEEL LIKE IT'S AN OFFENSIVE LOOK AND DON'T THINK IT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY REQUEST.
THE SECOND ONE THREE-CAR GARAGE ONLY PERMITTED WHERE THE OVERHEAD DOORS ARE ORIENTED AWAY FROM A FRONT YARD. WE'RE DEALING WITH CIRCUMSTANCE OF TWO FRONT YARD.
I DREW A BOX AROUND THE TWO-CAR GARAGE.
WE WOULDN'T HAVE THIS CONVERSATION FOR TWO-CAR GARAGE. IT'S PROHIBITION AGAINST THREE-CAR. YOU CAN FACE TOWARDS AN ALLEY. I'VE SHARED CONCERN OVER ACCESSING THE ALLEY. BOTTOM RIGHT IMAGE THE OTHER ALTERNATIVE WOULD BE BYPASS THE ALLEY.
PUT IT IN HERE AND DO A HARD RIGHT INTO THE GARAGE.
CERTAINLY THAT WOULD IMPACT THE FLOOR PLAN THE CLIENT DESIRES. NOT SAYING WE COULDN'T DO THAT. YOU NEED ABOUT 25 FEET TO HAVE A GOOD TURN AROUND. WE COULD COMPRESS THE FLOOR PLAN AND ACCOMPLISH THAT. I DON'T THINK THAT CREATES BENEFIT. WE'RE STILL GOING TO HAVE SUBSTANTIAL CURB CUT TOWARDS SECOND STREET NORTHWEST AND THE REALITY IS. WE WILL ADD THAT MUCH MORE IMPERVIOUS SURFACE TO THE LOT.
WE HAVE THAT DUPLICATE HERE AND THEN ALL OF THIS IMPERVIOUS SURFACE AS WELL. WE UP THAT PERCENTAGE AND ASK FOR MORE. WE THINK THAT OUR PROPOSAL IS A NICE COMPROMISE. DRIVEWAY WIDTH.
ANOTHER SIGNIFICANT ISSUE HERE AGAIN RELATED TO THE WHOLE CONCEPT OF SIDE STREET BEING A FRONT YARD IN ADDITION TO FIRST AVENUE. OUR DESIGNERS AND CLIENT -- I THINK HAVE GONE TO EXTRAORDINARY LENGTH TO MITIGATE THE IMPACT OF THE DRIVEWAY.
I WILL POINT HERE. WE'RE JUST PROPOSING A TRADITIONAL DRIVEWAY FOR SECTION OF IT.
WITH SOME APRONS HERE THAT ARE DESIGNED AS KIND OF DECORATIVE BANDING. FOR THIS THIRD CAR.
WE'RE SHOWING A 2 AND A HALF FOOT LANDSCAPE STRIP SEPARATING THE MAIN DRIVEWAY FROM THE SECONDARY DRIVE.
THEN LANDSCAPE STRIP ON THE MIDDLE OF THAT DRIVE THAT SEPARATES THREE OR TWO THREE-FOOT WIDE PAVER STRIPS. SOFTENING THE IMPACT OF THE AESTHETICS. THAT'S ONE OF THE BIGGER CONCERNS. SO MUCH PAVEMENT FACING THE STREET. AND SO THIS AREA HERE IS GOING TO FEEL MORE LIKE LANDSCAPE.
WITH JUST THE HARDSCAPE TO ALLOW WHEELS TO RUN ON IT.
THIS MORE TRADITIONAL DRIVEWAY.
THIS IS AREA WE'RE DEBATING TODAY.
I DID BIKE RIDE TOUR OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD TO SEE WHAT WAS WITHIN ONE BLOCK OF THE HOUSE.
THESE ARE BOTH PETITIONS THAT CAME BEFORE THE BZA IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS. AGAIN, THIS IS THREE-CAR DRIVE FACING A STREET. THIS IS NOT AN ALLEY.
THIS IS FACING STREET. THIRD STREET NORTHWEST.
ONE BLOCK NORTH. GOT A VARIANCE FOR A 33-FOOT WIDE DRIVEWAY. AGAIN NOT WHAT WE ARE REQUESTING. WE'RE REALLY PROPOSING TO SOFTEN IT AS COMPARED WHAT THIS IMAGE SHOWS.
THE REALITY WE LIVE AND LEARN.
WE DUPE THINGS AND LEARN AND GROW FROM IT.
I'M NOT SAY THICK THE WRONG. WE UNDERSTAND SOME OF THE STAFF CONCERN ABILITY IT. THAT'S WHY WITH PROPOSE THE LANDSCAPE AND DECORATIVE TREATMENT TO SOFTEN THAT.
HERE'S ANOTHER ONE WITH SAME ISSUE NEEDING TO HAVE WIDER DRIVEWAY THAN ALLOWED. WE FEEL LIKE THAT THERE'S PRECEDENT FOR IT. BUT THERE'S A TRUE PRACTICAL
[00:20:02]
DIFFICULT IN FIGURING OUT HOW TO PAVE AN ALLEY FOR A THREE-CAR GARAGE. WINDOW WELLS.THIS ONE I DO NOT BELIEVE WE NEED A VARIANCE FOR.
I WILL HIT IT REAL FAST TO BE CLEAR.
THE RULE SAID THAT YOU CAN ONLY ENCROACH 24 INCHES INTO A SIDE YARD SET BACK. OKAY.
OUR WINDOW WELLS START AT THE WALL HERE.
WE'VE GOT 1 AND A HALF FEET IN THIS OFF SET AND THEN FIVE FEET HERE TWO THE PROPERTY LINE.
WE HAVE 6 AND A HALF FEET AND 42 INCH WINDOW WELL.
WE ARE MAINTAINING OVER THREE FEET TO THE EDGE OF THE PROPERTY LINE. WE APPLIED FOR THE VARIANCE BECAUSE IT WAS REQUESTED. BUT I FEEL COMFORTABLE THAT IF YOU DIDN'T EVEN HEAR THAT ONE.
WE DON'T NEED A VARIANCE FOR THAT ONE.
WE'RE WITHIN CODE. LAST ONE IS HEIGHT.
THIS IS MOST AMBIGUOUS PART OF THE OVERLAY ZONE AND F FIGURING OUT HOW TO MEASURE. ULTIMATELY THE LANGUAGE THAT COPY AND PASTE ON UDO. HEIGHT THE 30 FEET.
AS MEASURED FOR MIDPOINT BETWEEN THE RIDGE OR IF YOU HAVE CHARACTER HOMES ADJACENT SAME BLOCK OR ACROSS THE STREET, THEN 7 FEET HIGHER IS THE RULE.
IT'S REALLY HARD TO GO PUT LADDERS AGAINST PEOPLE HOME AND TRY TO FIGURE OUT EXACTLY THE HEIGHT.
ESPECIALLY THIS ONE WITH TREES IN THE WAY.
THIS MATH IS APPROXIMATE. I SAY PROPOSED HEIGHT 31 FEET, ONE FOOT 9 AND 3/8. I WILL CALL THIS CYA VARIANCE. I DON'T THINK IT'S NECESSARY. BUT WE ARE APPLYING FOR IT.
WE TOOK MEASUREMENTS OF WHAT WE COULD DO OUR BEST HERE WITH FOUNDATION FIRST FLOOR, JOYCE, SECOND FLOOR AND THEN THIS MEASUREMENT WE CAME UP WITH 24.
WE'RE WITHIN THE COMPLIANCE. THIS CHARACTER HOME ACROSS THE STREET. DID THE SAME EXERCISE.
WE'RE IN COMPLIANCE. WE DON'T BELIEF WE NEED THIS VARIANCE BUT BECAUSE IT'S REALLY HARD TO MEASURE WE'RE APPLYING FOR IT. THAT'S THE FINAL ONE.
THAT'S THE SUMMARY, THANK YOU.
I USED ALMOST ALL 15 MINUTES HERE.
I REALLY THINK THE FIRST VARIANCE REQUEST FOR THE LOT COVERAGE AND THE LAST TWO ARE EITHER NOT NEEDED OR VERY TYPICAL. WE'RE REALLY HERE TO DISCUSS THE THREE-CAR GARAGE. I BELIEVE OUR PRACTICAL DIFFICULT ACCORDING TO STATUTE IS THAT THE CONDITION MAKES IT DIFFICULT TO DO A THREE-CAR GARAGE.
RESPECTFULLY REQUEST YOUR APPROVAL OF VARIANCE REQUESTS. THANK YOU.
>> THANK YOU. >> THIS IS A PUBLIC HEARING.
IS THERE ANYONE HERE TONIGHT WHO WISHES TO SPEAK IN FAVOR
OF OR AGAINST THIS PETITION? >> SEEING NONE.
ANGIE, DO YOU HAVE A STAFF REPORT.
>> YES, YOU ALL HAVE THE STAFF REPORT IN FRONT OF YOU DISTRIBUTED FIVE DAYS AGO. I JUST WANTED TO GO OVER FEW KEY TOPICS, OF -- FOR THE OLD TOWN OVERLAY DISTRICT REGULATIONS. THOSE ARE IN PLACE TO ENSURE THAT WE PRESERVE THE CHARACTER OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD AND PRESERVE CERTAIN BUILDINGS AND ALSO CERTAIN SIGHT CHARACTERISTICS.
IF YOU WALK THROUGH THE NEIGHBORHOOD, YOU WILL SEE THE HOUSE FROM THE LATE 1800'S EARLY 1900S AND THEY HAVE A CERTAIN SCALE AND MASSING.
THEY ARE NOT REALLY TALL. THEY ARE NOT REALLY BIG.
THAT ARE MORE WHAT I CALL HUMAN SCALE.
AND THEN OUR STAFF REPORT DOES AN ANALYSIS OF THE VARIANCE REQUEST. WITH THE FINAL STAFF COMMENT WE GO ON TO STATE THAT AS A WHOLE LOOKING AT SIX VARIANCES, WE AS PLANNING STAFF CAN BE SUPPORTIVE OF ALL THE VARIANCES THAT'S WHY WE RECOMMEND NEGATIVE CONSIDERATION OF AT LEAST VARIANCES THE PLANNING STAFF FEELS LIKE WITH ALL THE VARIANCES TOO MUCH HOUSE, TOO MUCH USE ON THIS SITE. AND MIGHT NOT BE APPROPRIATE FOR THE NEIGHBORHOOD. AGAIN, WE DO ASK THAT YOU CONSIDER THESE VARIANCES NEGATIVELY.
>> THANK YOU. >> OKAY THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
MEMBERS OF THE BZA, DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS FOR THE PETITIONER OR HAVE ANY QUESTIONS FOR CLARIFICATION
>> JUSTIN WHAT'S THE ACTUAL SQUARE FOOTAGE OF THE
[00:25:09]
>> MR. POTASNIK, MAY I ASK, DO I REBUTT THE STAFF
COMMENTS. >> ACCORDING TO RULES OF PROCEDURE YOU DO NOT. IF ONE MEMBER ASKED YOU TO
SPEAK, YOU CAN. >> I HAVE A QUICK QUESTION.
WHAT'S YOUR TYPICAL SIZE FOR THREE-CAR GARAGE?
>> I WOULD SAY TYPICAL IS 33 TO 36 WIDE BY 25 DEEP.
AND SO THAT MEASURES OUT ANYWHERE FROM 825 WOULD BE TYPICAL. THIS HAS EXTRA STORAGE SPACE
ON THE BACK. >> THAT'S WHAT I'M CONFUSED WITH. WE'RE TALKING THREE CAR GARAGE. THIS SEEMS LIKE A LARGE THREE-CAR GARAGE FROM WHAT I'M ACCUSTOMED TO.
WHY DO YOU NEED THE SQUARE FOOTAGE IN THE GARAGE?
>> ULTIMATELY, IT'S STORAGE. BUT THE REALITY IF WE -- I'M FOCUSING ON THE ISSUE AT HAND.
THE WIDTH OF THE GARAGE AS PROPOSED IS NOT ATYPICAL FOR THREE CAR. IT'S NOT LIKE WE TOOK A THREE CAR AND ADDED 20 FEET TO BOOST THE SIDE.
CLIENT CUSTOM DESIGNED AND PUT STORAGE IN THE BACK OF IT. WE COULD PUT A PETITION WALL AND CALL THAT INTERIOR SQUARE FOOTAGE.
THAT'S NOT PART OF THE DEBATE.
THE FOCUS IS ON THE OVERALL WIDTH AND IMPACT ON THE
STREETSCAPE ADJACENT. >> YES, LEO.
>> I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR YOUR OPINION OF THE NEGATIVE RECOMMENDATION OF THE CITY. IF YOU COULD HOLD TO FIVE MINUTES. THAT WOULD BE GREAT.
>> I WILL BE BRIEF. THE REALILITY IS I KNOW THIS STAFF IS HOLDING CARMEL TO HIGH BAR.
I THINK THAT IDEALLY YOU KNOW WE CAN APPLY ACADEMIC STANDARD TO EVERYTHING. WE HAVE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT MAKE DEVELOPMENT HARD SOMETIMES.
MY CHALLENGE WITH THE WAY THE STAFF REPORT WAS WRITTEN ON THIS ONE WAS THAT I THINK IT PUT BIAS AGAINST THE PETITION FROM THE BEGINNING TO SAY IT WAS EXTRAORDINARY AMOUNT OF VARIANCES. NOT THE CASE.
WE BRING SEVERAL TO HEARING OFFICER FREQUENTLY.
ALMOST MONTHLY. THE REALITY THERE'S TWO THAT SHOULDN'T BE VARIANCES. I MADE THE CASE HERE.
TAKE IT TO THE BANK. THEY DON'T EXIST.
WE REQUESTED TO APPLY FOR THEM.
THEY DON'T EXIST. SO YOU'RE DOWN TO FOUR.
THE FIRST ONE CO LOT COVERAGE.
I THINK IT'S UNFAIR TO SUGGEST THAT THIS IS OUT OF THE ORY. THIS IS A VERY SPECIFIC SITUATION. WE HAVE NOT APPLIED FOR THIS ISSUE. BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT HAD TO.
EVERY TIME WE FOUND A WAY TO DESIGN TOWARD AN ALLEY.
THE CIRCUMSTANCE THAT MAKES IT CHALLENGING.
I WILL TELL YOU WE SHARED THE PETITION WITH NEIGHBORS.
EVERYBODY GOT NOTICED. I DON'T KNOW IF MENTIONED TO FIGHT. FOUR NEIGHBORS SENT LETTERS OF SUPPORT INCLUDING THE ADJACENT NEIGHBOR IMMEDIATELY NEXT DOOR WHO HAS A THREE-CAR GARAGE.
NO ONE SHOWED UP. THIS IS THERE COMMUNITY.
THIS IS THERE NEIGHBORHOOD. NO ONE SAID WE DON'T WANT THIS. FOUR NEIGHBORS SAY WE THINK THIS IS GREAT. I THINK THERE'S SUPPORT WITHIN THE NEIGHBORHOOD FOR IT.
I THINK THEY ARE FAIR UNDER THE PRACTICAL DIFFICULT I
>> SO JUSTIN, IF THIS WERE AN ALLEY THAT WAS A REAL ALLEY; YOU WOULD ORIENT THE GARAGE TOWARD THE ALLEY WHAT YOU TYPICALLY DO; RIGHT? SO IT WOULDN'T NEED THIS VARIANCE. YOU SAID THAT SO THE UTILITY COMPANY WILL PUT IN BIGGER -- THE PLAN TO PUT IN BIGGER POLES THAT WOULD LIMIT THE UTILITY OF THE ALLEY EVEN IF IT WERE PAVED. IS THAT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING?
>> I'M SAYING THAT WE DON'T HAVE THE LUXURY OF BEING ABLE TO PREDICT EXACTLY WHEN IT WILL HAPPEN, AND WHAT THE FINAL PLAN IS. I CAN TELL YOU THEY'VE SOUGHT EASEMENTS TO BE ABLE PUT THE POLES IN.
THEY ACTUALLY NEED TO GET ON SOME OF THE PRIVATE PROPERTY. I ACTUALLY UNTIL RECENTLY UNTIL TWO WEEKS AGO I OWN MY GRANDPARENTS HOME TWO DOORS SOUTH OF THIS. AND I GRANTED DUKE AN EASEMENT TO PUT AN OFF-SET POLE IN THE MIDDLE OF THEIR
[00:30:02]
BACKYARD SO THEY WITH PUT THE NEW POLE AND REATTACH.AND SO THAT'S ANOTHER CHALLENGE IST TO BUILD IN T BACKYARDS BECAUSE DUKE IS ONE OF THE EASEMENT TO BE ABLE TO PUT POLES UP. I WOULD TELL YOU SEPARATE FROM THAT ISSUE. THAT'S THE EXTRA ORY CIRCUMSTANCE. THEY TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET ALLEY THROUGH THAT SECTION OF OLD TOWN.
WE WOULD HAVE DONE IT BY NOW BECAUSE OF THE UTILITIES
>> TO CLARIFY. THAT'S SOMETHING I WAS HAVING A HARD TIME UNDERSTANDING.
WHEN YOU SAY YOU'RE GRANTING EASEMENT.
THAT'S A TEMPORARY EASEMENT FOR THE TEMPORARY POLE.
THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO PUT THOSE POLES ANYWHERE IN THE ALLEY IN THAT EASEMENT THAT THEY WANT.
>> YES. >> IT'S A BLANKET UTILITY CORRIDOR THAT WE HAVE ZERO CONTROL OVER.
>> JUST CONFUSED WHEN YOU YOU WHERE GRANTING EASEMENT
IN AN ALLEY. >> THAT'S JUST TEMPORARY
>> TWO OF THE OTHER VARIANCES AND I HEAR YOUR POINT ABOUT THE COUNT AND SIMPLY THERE'S SIX DOESN'T MEAN ANY ONE OF THEM HAS LESS MERIT.
BUT FOR THE SET BACK REQUIREMENT ON THE GARAGE ELEVATION, IT LOOKS LIKE THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY PAUSE THEY ALL SHARE A COMMON WALL FOR THE GARAGE AND THE SCREEN FOR THE PATIO TO BE SHIFTED BACK AT LEAST SOMEWHAT. WITHIN THE CONFINES OF THE REAR SET BACK. IS THAT A POSSIBILITY?
>> MEANING SHIFTED TO THE RIGHT FROM THIS IMAGE?
>> FROM -- TOWARD I GUESS THIS WOULD BE TO THE SOUTH IF I UNDERSTAND THIS CORRECTLY.
>> YES. >> AWAY FROM THE STREET.
>> THAT HAS BEEN A DISCUSSION HERE.
AGAIN COVERED PORCH HERE'S THE FIVE FOOT SET BACK.
THIS IS A FAIRLY -- THIS MEASUREMENT HERE IS THE EKSZ THAT ORDINARY GARAGE. THIS THE STORAGE AREA.
THIS TYPICAL GARAGE DEPTH. THERE'S NOT AN OPPORTUNITY
TO PUSH SOUTH. >> I WAS THINKING OF EVERYTHING. THE GARAGE, PORCH AND PATIO
ALL BEING SLIPPED. >> IT CAN'T GO ANY FURTHER SOUTH. TO ACCOMPLISH THAT WHICH
WOULD HAVE TO ERIMNATE THIS. >> IT ALREADY HAS SET BACK?
>> YES, SIR. >> I WILL ACKNOWLEDGE THIS FALLS INTO CLIENT PREFERENCE AND ORIENTATION.
THEY WANTED THE SOUTH VIEW. BETWEEN THE GAR A.J. AND HOME. IT'S MORE PRIVATE.
THAT'S THEIR CHOICE THERE. >> AND ON THE LOT COVER ISSUE IS THERE AN OPPORTUNITY YOU'VE DONE WITH ONE LANE. IS THERE AN OPPORTUNITY TO U USE PERVIOUS MATERIALS ON THE OTHER PARTS OF THE DRIVEWAY?
>> NOT BEEN DISCUSSED WITH THE KRICLIENT.
I THINK THEIR OPENNESS TO PAVER TYPE MATERIAL.
WE THREW THAT OUT THERE. PAVER DON'T REDUCE LOT COVERAGE AS FAR AS AS FAR AS GETTING CREDIT FOR IT.
IT REALLY JUST AN AESTHETIC TREATMENT AND FUNCTIONAL
BENEFIT. >> I WOULD TELL YOU THAT WE'VE DONE QUITE A FEW EXPERIMENTAL PROJECTS.
AND PARTNERSHIP WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF ENGINEERING TRYING NEW THINGS AND GRASS PAVERS IN OUR CLIENT THOSE THINGS ARE TOUGH TO MAKE WORK.
I THINK I WOULD NEVER ADVICE A CLIENT TO DO A COMPLETE YOU KNOW HARDSCAPE GRASS TYPE DRIVE SITUATION.
IT'S GOING TO GET DESTROYED. PAVERS WOULD BE PROBABLY THE BIGGEST STRETCH AND WE'RE DOING PAVER AND BANDING.
I DON'T THINK IT WOULD. JUST DOESN'T CHANGE THE
COUNT, I GUESS. >> JUST A MOMENT.
AS FAR AS THE STAFF REPORT IS CONCERNED.
I CAN ASK ANGIE IF YOU WANT TO RESPOND.
APPEARS THIS IS MCMANSION HOUSE.
IS THERE ANYTHING SPECIAL ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR PROPERTY THAT MAKES IT A MANSION?
[00:35:02]
>> I WILL ADDRESS THAT. THAT'S PROBABLY THE MOST CHALLENGING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO RESPOND TO.
IN FULL DISCLOSURE, YOU KNOW IS THIS MY ARCHITECTURAL PREFERENCE? IT'S NOT MY STYLE.
I LIKE CRAFTSMAN STYLE HOME. THAT'S MY PREFERENCE.
DOES IT MEET REQUIREMENTS? YES.
>> MCMANSION IS YOU COULD APPLY TO ARCHITECTURE OR MASS. I HAVE PLENTY OF STAFF REPORTS THAT SUPPORT 53% LOT COVERAGE.
WE COME TO HEARING OFFICER ALL THE TIME FOR IT.
IF WE LOOK AT THE HOMES AROUND THIS.
MOST OF THEM HAVE THAT SORT OF LOT COVERAGE.
IF THAT IS ADDRESS SCALE OF HOME JUST ABILITY EVERY HOME HAS THAT. ABOUT ARCHITECTURE THAT'S A MATTER OF TASTE. IF I FOUND THAT OUT OF CHARACTER. I HAVE SOME AUTHORITY.
I WOULD PROBABLY SAY I'M NOT COMFORTABLE BUILDING THIS.
IT'S THE CLIENT'S TASTE. THEY INVESTING SIGNIFICANT RESOURCES. I DON'T THINK IT'S OFFENSIVE TO THAT OF MY NEIGHBORS. WHAT DO YOU THINK? YOU GOT SUPPORT LETTERS. THAT'S MY POSITION.
THE HOMES ARE LARGE. I WILL AGREE WITH THAT.
BUT THEY ARE -- IT'S I GUESS IN THE NORM OF WHAT'S HAPPENED WHICH STAFF HAS PREVIOUSLY SUPPORTED WHEN WE
CAME TO HEARING OFFICER. >> OKAY.
ANGIE, DO YOU WANT TO COMMENT HERE?
>> SURE, JUST A QUICK COMMENT.
IT'S MOSTLY ABOUT MASSING AND SCALE.
THEY DO COMPLY WITH ARCHITECTURAL STANDARD AS FAR AS MATERIAL AND WINDOWS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
WHEN YOU HAVE REALLY TALL CEILING AND BIG HOUSE IT'S MASSIVE AND TOWERING. NOT QUITE WHAT I CALL HUMAN SCALE WHERE IT'S JUST IT'S ALMOST EXCESSIVE IN A WAY.
HENCE THE NEED FOR THE V VARIANCE FOR THE NEED HIGHLIGHT. TALL CEILINGS JUST MAKES IT TALL OVERALL. THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO SAY IS HAS A LARGE PRESENCE ON THE CORNER.
>> I WANT TO GO BACK TO THE GARAGE.
IF YOU REDUCE THE GARAGE SIZE, YOU CAN AT LEAST BREAK UP THAT MANOTONY AND PROBABLY REDUCE THE LOT COVERAGE. I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING THAT, THAT KIND OF DOESN'T PLAY INTO THE THREE-CARS GOING IN. BUT YOU STILL HAVE QUITE A BIT OF EXCESS SPACE COMING FROM THAT AREA THAT HITTING A COUPLE OF THESE OTHER REQUEST.
>> I APOLOGIZE. I'M NOT UNDERSTANDING THAT.
I GUESS HOW THE CLIENT VERY SPECIFICALLY HAS REQUESTED THAT WE DESIGN AND SEEK APPROVAL FOR THREE-CAR GARAGE. THAT'S REALLY THE SUMMARY OF THOSE VARIANCES. PUSHING THE GARAGE FURTHER AWAY. I MEAN IF WE WENT FOR A STANDARD THREE-CAR GARAGE, TO YOU KNOW WHAT WE WOULD TYPICALLY DO, IT WOULD BE TAKE THING WALL HERE AND EXTENDED IT TO THE RIGHT AND ELIMINATING THIS SPACE.
THEN THAT'S THE THREE-CAR GARAGE.
WE'RE REALLY DISCUSSING ELIMINATING THIS 17-FOOT BY 7 OR 8 FOOT STORAGE AREA. THAT'S WHAT IS MAKING IT OVERSIZED. THERE'S REALLY NOT A GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO AGAIN IF WE JUST ELIMINATED THAT, THAT WAS OUR OPTION TO MAKE THIS WORK, WE WOULD GO HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THEM. PUSHING IT TAKES THIS SPACE AS WELL. IT ALSO CREATES THE ISSUE THAT BACK TO LOT COVERAGE. IF WE WERE TO PUSH THIS WALL SOUTH AND CREATE THE 15-FOOT SEPARATION FROM THE FRONT FACED ASSUMING THE HOUSE HAS TWO FRONT FACEDS.
IT WOULD HAVE LONGER DRIVEWAY.
I'M NOT TRYING TO BE DIFFICULT.
I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT WE COULD CHANGE THAT WOULD MAKE
POSITIVE IMPACT. >> BRAD TALKED ABOUT MOVING THE GARAGE BACK. AND MY POINT IS THAT 51 FEET OF STRAIGHT LINE GARAGE, COULD BE BROKEN UP BY MOVING IT BACK INTO THAT EXCESS STORAGE AREA.
YOU WOULD GAIN YOU ARE NOT EXTENDING THAT DRIVE.
YOU ARE EXTENDING PAVER WITH THE GRASS.
IT DOES REMOVE SOME OF THE I THIS THE CONFUSION IS SEEING
[00:40:01]
THE MEASUREMENT. THESE ARE PRETTY TYPICAL SINGLE CAR STALLS AND SO WE'RE REALLY MEASURING FROM HERE TO HERE. AND THEN THERE'S NOT REALLY WIDTH HERE TO REDUCE OR WE WOULD NOT HAVE A THREE CARANYMORE. >> OFF SETTING TO HAVE SOME AIRIANS AND THAT ELEVATION AND THAT ARCHITECTURAL DETAIL. THANKS, THOUGH.
>> THANK YOU. I GUESS I'M A LITTLE BIT SURPRISED BY THE USE OF THE WORD MCMANSION.
PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN THE MCMANSIONS PAY ALL OUR BILLS WITH TAXES AND SO FORTH AND I STILL UNFORTUNATELY OWN ONE. BUT I'VE NEVER BEEN CHARACTERIZED AS THIS. I GUESS THAT'S THE NEW WAY TO DO IT. I WILL MOVE TO APPROVE.
I UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU ARE COMING.
COMPLETELY ON THE SAME PAGE. I THINK THIS IS DEFINITELY ONE OF THE MOST UNUSUAL CASES IN ONE OF THE CASES WHERE WE CAN JUSTIFY THE VARIANCES THAT YOU REQUESTED OTHER THAN THE TWO YOU DON'T NECESSARILY NEED BASED UPON THE INFORMATION YOU PRESENTED.
I'M NOT UP FOR DEBATE. JUST APPROVE THEM AND THEN MOVE ON WITH OUR LIVES. I CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES ARE IF SOMEONE WANTS TO BUILD THAT HOUSE ON THE LOT IN THAT LOCATION, GOD BLESS AMERICA.
I MOVE TO APPROVE DOCKET NUMBER PZ-2021-00514V
>> IT'S BEEN MOVED TO APPROVE DOCKET PZ-2021-00514V TO 00519V. AND THE ADOPTION OF THE FINDING OF FACTS SUBMITTED BY THE PETITIONER.
[I. New Business ]
>> THIS IS -- THESE HAVE BEEN APPROVED.
PZ-2021-00154V WOULD BE FOR IN FOUR IN FAVORS ONE AGAINST. PZ2021-0015V THREE IN FAVOR.
TWO NO. MR. HAWKINS AND MR. GRABOW.
THE OTHERS HAVE BEEN APPROVED 5-0.
IS THERE ANY OTHER BUSINESS TO COME BEFORE THE BOARD?
>> HEARING NONE THIS MEETING STANDS ADJOURNED.
* This transcript was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.