[1. Personnel Issue]
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>> GOOD EVENING. WE WILL CALL TO ORDER THE MEETING OF THE CARMEL CITY COUNCIL COMMITTEE AS A WHOLE.
SPECIFICALLY, THIS EVENING WE ARE ADDRESSING A HR PERSONNEL RELATED ISSUE THAT WAS A RECOMMENDATION OUT OF OUR COUNCIL MEETING ON AUGUST 2. AND JUST AS A REMINDER FOR EVERYONE PRESENT OR WHO MAY BE PARTICIPATING, THIS WAS A MEETING WHERE ONE OF THE ITEMS THAT WE REVIEWED WAS A SPECIFIC WORKPLACE HARASSMENT OR HOSTILE WORKPLACE INVESTIGATION INITIALLY DONE BY THE CITY, INCLUDING THE MAYOR WHERE THE COUNCIL GOT INVOLVED AND DID AN INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION AS WELL. ON AUGUST 2, WE RECAPPED THE RESULTS OF OUR INVESTIGATION AT LEAST VERBALLY, MADE A MOTION TO -- ALSO ASKED TO SUBPOENA THE CONFIDENTIAL SETTLEMENT AS ASSOCIATED WITH THAT. THAT MOTION DID NOT PASS.
BUT THE MOTION THAT SPECIFICALLY PASSED WAS THAT WE WOULD, AS A COUNSEL, PUBLISHED FINDINGS.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, RECOMMENDATIONS TO PREVENT SIMILAR INSTANCES FROM HAPPENING TO EMPLOYEES.
TO READ IT VERBATIM TO REMIND ALL OF US -- THIS WAS ON AUGUST 2, MY SELF AND COUNSEL -- MOVED AS A COMMITTEE AS A WHOLE AND TO INCLUDE RECOMMENDATIONS TO IMPROVE CITY POLICIES.
COUNSELOR NELSON SECONDED. THERE IS A BRIEF DISCUSSION AND THE VOTE WAS 8-0. SO AS A REMINDER, THIS IS OUR OWN RECOMMENDATION THAT WE WOULD CREATE FINDINGS AND RECOMMENDATIONS. AND THAT'S WHAT WE WILL DO THIS EVENING. I DON'T BELIEVE WE WILL GET TO THE FINAL FINAL PART OF THIS. THERE ARE TWO COMPONENTS OF THIS. ONE IS FINDINGS OF FACTS.
MY INTENT RIGHT NOW IS WORK WITH COUNSELOR CAMPBELL RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE SHE PREPARED A PRELIMINARY REPORT WITH OUTSIDE COUNSEL. WE WILL BE WORKING ON TRYING TO START DRAFT RECOMMENDATIONS, WHICH I THINK WE ALL AGREE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THIS.
HOW CAN WE HAVE THIS FROM HAPPENING AGAIN? WE HAVE TWO GUESTS WITH US. WE COUNT BENJAMIN AS WELL.
WE HAVE DIRECTOR LAM, DIRECTOR OF HR.
WHAT I AM SPECIFICALLY GOING TO ASK YOU TONIGHT, DIRECTOR, IS TO TALK ABOUT WHAT SPECIFIC RECOMMENDATIONS THAT YOUR DEPARTMENT HAS ENACTED AS A RESULT OF THIS? ONCE AGAIN, OUR GOAL IS TO TRY TO PREVENT A SIMILAR INCIDENT.
AS PART OF THAT, WHAT I INCLUDED OR HAD JACOB INCLUDED IN THE PACKAGE IS A DOCUMENT CALLED EMPLOYEE CRITICAL CLAIMS HOTLINE. SO IF YOU COULD TALK ABOUT THAT? I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S ACTIVE OR JUST SOMETHING WE ARE THINKING ABOUT.
AND IT ALSO LOOKS LIKE THE EMPLOYEE HANDBOOK WAS RECENTLY UPDATED IN 2020.O WHAT WOULD BE HELPFUL FOR ME, CERTAINLY, WOULD BE TO HEAR SPECIFICALLY -- BECAUSE IT'S NOT REDLINED DESK OR WHAT SECTIONS HAVE BEEN UPDATED.
AND AFTER THAT, CERTAINLY ANYTHING THAT HAS NOT BEEN DONE BUT YOU WOULD RECOMMEND THAT WE TAKE AS A COMMITTEE.
CERTAINLY THERE WILL BE OPPORTUNITIES FOR US TO ANSWER QUESTIONS AS WELL.E ALSO HAVE CORPORATE COUNSEL, MR. OBERLANDER HERE. JOHN, I DON'T SPECIFICALLY -- I HADN'T PLANNED ON GIVING YOUR OPEN MIC BUT YOU ARE WELCOME TO DO THAT. I THINK A LOT OF YOU BEING HERE IS THAT THERE WILL LIKELY BE QUESTIONS TO ARISE.
AS I MENTIONED BACK IN AUGUST, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MAKES THIS CHALLENGING HAVING RUN COMPANIES, HR ISSUES ARE THORNY ON A GOOD DAY. IN A NORMAL ORGANIZATION, WHETHER IT'S FOR-PROFIT OR NOT-FOR-PROFIT, IT CAN BE CHALLENGING IN A GOVERNMENTAL ORGANIZATION, WHERE YOU HAVE SEPARATION OF ELECTRIC FFICIAL. I THINK IT BE MORE CHALLENGING.
SO THERE MIGHT BE SOME QUESTIONS THAT ARISE NOW.
AND AS WE MOVE TOWARDS OUR RECOMMENDATIONS WHERE WE NEED YOUR ADVICE AS TO WHAT WE CAN OR CANNOT DO BY STATE CODE TO BE ABLE TO MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS.
I HAVE PREVIEWED TO MY FELLOW COUNSELORS THAT WE MAY BE IN A SITUATION FOR SOME OF OUR RECOMMENDATIONS WHERE THEY ARE JUST THAT. THERE RECOMMENDATIONS BUT NOT COMPELLING. WE CAN'T SAY SHALL BUT WE RECOMMEND. WE WILL HAVE QUESTIONS FOR YOU TO REVIEW BEFORE WE GET TO THE FINAL, FINAL VERSION.
THAT'S WHY I ASK YOU TO BE HERE AND I APPRECIATE THAT.
ANYTHING ELSE ON THE AGENDA THAT ANYONE ELSE WOULD LIKE TO GO THROUGH? AGAIN, WE HAVE TWO HOURS.
DON'T KNOW IF IT'LL TAKE THAT AMOUNT.
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WE CERTAINLY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO GET THROUGH THE FINAL BECAUSE IT WILL BE BOTH FINDINGS AND RECOMMENDATIONS.SO I WOULD LIKE THE TRUNK THROUGH THIS AS MUCH AS WE CAN WHILE WE ARE ALL HERE. I THINK THERE WILL BE A COUPLE OF COUNSELORS WHO JOIN AS WELL. SO DIRECTOR LAM, IF YOU WOULDN'T MIND, WE WILL START WITH YOU.
BUT WHAT I WAS THINKING, AND CERTAINLY MY FELLOW COUNSELORS CAN AND SHOULD JUMP INIS IF YOU COULD TALK ABOUT SPECIFICALLY WHAT CHANGES HAVE BEEN MADE IN THE EMPLOYEE MANUAL -- POLICIES OR PROCEDURES THAT IS COINCIDENTAL OR AS A RESULT OF THESE FINDINGS? AND THEN, THERE MAY BE OTHER RECOMMENDATIONS THAT YOU HAVE, THAT EITHER ARE IN WORK OR MAY NEED COUNCIL ACTION.
AND WE WOULD LIKE TO HEAR THAT. THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.
>> SO OUR POLICY -- OUR COMPLETE POLICY HANDBOOK, WHICH THE POLICY HANDBOOK I DO IS FOR CIVILIANS ONLY.
AND THEY INCORPORATE PORTIONS OF THOSE IN THE POLICE AND FIRE AS APPROPRIATE. SO WE COMPLETELY UPDATED THAT IN 2020. AND WE DID UPDATE OUR HARASSMENT AND REPORTING POLICY A LITTLE BIT.
IT REALLY HAS STAYED ESSENTIALLY THE SAME.
OVER THE YEARS, WE STARTED OFF TALKING BASICALLY ABOUT SEXUAL HARASSMENT MANY YEARS AGO. AND THEN WE ADDED THERE CAN BE OTHER KINDS OF HARASSMENT BASED ON OTHER CHARACTERISTICS.O WE ADDED THAT. IN MORE RECENT YEARS, WE TALKED ABOUT BULLYING. SO WE ADDED THAT.
SO WE TALK ABOUT ALL KINDS OF THINGS THAT WE THINK MIGHT CREATE A PROBLEM IN A WORKPLACE -- A HOSTILE WORK ENVIRONMENT.
AND HOW THOSE SHOULD BE REPORTED AND HOW THEY WILL BE INVESTIGATED. THE THING THAT WE CHANGE, INTERESTINGLY IN 2020, IS THE THING THAT AFFECTED THIS PARTICULAR CASE. AND THAT IS THE REPORTING INVOLVED WHEN CERTAIN PEOPLE -- COMPLAINTS ARE MADE AGAINST CERTAIN POSITIONS IN THE CITY. IN THIS CASE, A CITY ATTORNEY.
THEN IT GOES TO THE MAYOR. THAT USED TO NOT BE THERE.
THAT WAS CHANGED IN 2022 CREATE A SPECIAL REPORTING AND INVESTIGATIVE PROCESS FOR THOSE PARTICULAR SITUATIONS.
IT'S INTERESTING THAT HAPPENED TO CHANGE AT THE TIME IT BECAME PARTICULARLY RELEVANT. SO THAT WAS THE ONLY SIGNIFICANT CHANGE, I BELIEVE, IN 2020.
AS TO WHAT WE CHANGED SINCE THEN? I WILL SAY THAT EARLIER THIS YEAR, COUNSELOR CAMPBELL CAME AND TALK TO ME. AND SHE WAS GOING TO GIVE ME A LIST AND I HAVE NOT SEEN A LIST.
I SAT THROUGH A MEETING AND THERE WERE A LOT OF THINGS TALKED ABOUT. AND SO, I WAS WAITING TO BE DIRECTED AS TO WHAT TO UPDATE. ONE OF THE IMPORTANT THINGS -- I THINK OUR POLICY IS GENERALLY QUITE GOOD.
IT INVOLVES MULTIPLE AVENUES TO REPORT INCIDENTS.
AND THAT'S ONE OF THE CRITICAL THINGS.
BECAUSE IF YOU DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE GOING TO YOUR SUPERVISOR, THEN IT ALLOWS YOU, EVEN IN A CHAIN OF COMMAND, TO GO OUTSIDE OF THAT CHAIN AND GO TO YOUR DIRECTOR.
IF YOU DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE GOING TO THE DIRECTOR, YOU CAN COME TO HUMAN RESOURCES. SO WE OFFER AT LEAST THREE OPPORTUNITIES. SO I THINK THAT WE'VE COVERED THAT PRETTY WELL. AND OVER THE YEARS, WE HAVE HAD INCIDENTS REPORTED IN ALL OF THOSE WAYS.
SOMETIMES A DIRECT SUPERVISOR. SOMETIMES THE DIRECTOR COMES TO ME AND IT HAS BEEN REPORTED TO THEM.
SOMETIMES PEOPLE COME TO ME DIRECTLY.
AND I BELIEVE THAT PEOPLE ARE GENERALLY REPORTING THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING. YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW. BUT OVER THE YEARS, WE HAVE HAD REPORTS AND WE HAVE HAD INVESTIGATED AND RESOLVED ISSUES. WE HAVE DISCIPLINED PEOPLE AND WE HAVE TERMINATED PEOPLE FOR ACTIONS THAT HAVE TAKEN PLACE IN THE WORKPLACE. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT DID COME OUT OF THIS THAT HAS BEEN ACTED UPON -- AND THIS IS WHAT I GAVE YOU -- THE CRITICAL CLAIMS HOTLINE.
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NORMALLY, OUR POLICY IS -- AND THE WAY WE PREFER THINGS IS SOMETHING WILL BE HANDLED AT THE LOWEST POSSIBLE LEVEL.SO STARTING WITH THE SUPERVISOR OR THE DIRECTOR OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HUMAN RESOURCES. BECAUSE THAT'S THAT LOWEST LEVEL.T'S A PLACE THAT THEY KNOW THE PEOPLE AND THEY KNOW THE POLICIES. THEY CAN HANDLE IT WITH THE LEAST AMOUNT OF FUSS. I CAN SEE WHAT THE PROBLEM IS AND I CAN TAKE CARE OF IT. DONE.
WE MOVE ON. IT GETS MORE COMPLICATED AND MORE PEOPLE GET INVOLVED AS YOU MOVE UP.
THAT'S NOT TO SAY THAT THE SUPERVISOR IS ALWAYS THE RIGHT PERSON. BUT AT THE LOWEST LEVEL THAT IS APPROPRIATE. BUT IN AUGUST, WE CONTRACTED WITH A COMPANY CALLED HRD. IT'S A HUMAN RESOURCES CONSULTING FIRM, TO PROVIDE ANOTHER LEVEL OF REPORTING.
THIS IS FOR CLAIMS THAT CAN'T BE HANDLED OR HAVEN'T BEEN HANDLED THROUGH THE NORMAL REPORTING PROCESS.
THE FIRST PAGE OF WHAT I HAVE GIVEN YOU IS THE SHEET THAT IS MADE TO GO OUT TO EMPLOYEES. INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, IT WAS ON TOP OF MY PILE THIS WEEK. THE EMPLOYEES HAVE NOT BEEN INFORMED YET, BUT THIS IS WHAT THEY WILL GET ALONG WITH SOME ADDITIONAL INSTRUCTIONS FROM ME.
SO EMPLOYEES CAN CALL OR THEY CAN EMAIL HRD.
BUT THERE ARE TWO CRITERIA -- TWO BASIC CRITERIA FOR CRITICAL CLAIMS. AND YOU WILL SEE THOSE OVER HERE ON THE RIGHT-HAND SIDE. ONE IS IT'S GOT TO BE SOMETHING UNLAWFUL THAT THEY HAVE EXPERIENCED, SEEN OR HEARD ABOUT. AND NUMBER 2 IS THEY DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE GOING THROUGH THE NORMAL CHAIN OF COMMAND BECAUSE THEY FEAR RETALIATION, OR BECAUSE THEY ALREADY REPORTED IT AND THEY FEEL IT HASN'T BEEN HANDLED ADEQUATELY OR RESOLVED.
IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE AND THEY GO INTO SOME DETAIL ABOUT THIS THAT THIS IS FOR UNETHICAL OR UNLAWFUL ACTS.
IT'S NOT TO COMPLAIN THAT YOUR BOSS DIDN'T GIVE YOU A PROMOTION OR TO COMPLAIN THAT YOUR COWORKER TAKES TOO LONG FOR THEIR LUNCH HOUR. THIS IS FOR IMPORTANT THINGS.
AND IF THINGS ARE NOT AT THAT LEVEL, THEY WILL TELL THEM THAT THEY NEED TO REPORT IT TO SOMEONE ELSE.
THEY WILL REPORT THESE CLAIMS BACK TO US.
WE WILL DETERMINE -- WE WILL SIT DOWN WITH THEM AND DETERMINE WHO GETS REPORTED TO AND HOW MUCH INFORMATION THEY GIVE US. AND WE WILL GO OVER THE PROCESS. IN FACT, WE HAVE A MEETING -- I DON'T HAVE IT SCHEDULED YET, BUT IT'S TENTATIVELY SET FOR EARLY NEXT WEEK. I ASKED SUE TO JOIN US BECAUSE I WANT THE COUNCIL REPRESENTED AT THAT MEETING TO MAKE SURE YOU ARE COMFORTABLE.OR INSTANCE, THEY CAN REPORT TO ME. THEY CAN REPORT TO ME AND A COUNCILMEMBER. THEY CAN REPORT TO WHOEVER WE DECIDE IT NEEDS REPORTED TO. SO THAT'S A DECISION WE GET TO MAKE. AND WE WILL TALK ABOUT HOW MUCH DETAIL THEY GIVE US AND HOW MUCH INFORMATION THEY WILL TAKE FROM THE EMPLOYEE. AND THE LATTER PAGES OF THIS DOCUMENT ARE THE OUTLINE FOR THE MEETING THAT WE WILL HAVE NEXT WEEK. JUST TO GO OVER HOW THIS WORKS AND WHAT WE NEED TO KNOW AND WHAT THEY NEED TO KNOW.
SO AS I SAID, THESE WILL BE REPORTED BACK TO THE CITY, BUT THERE IS AN ADDED LEVEL OF ACCOUNTABILITY.
THE CITY CAN CHOOSE TO DO ITS OWN INVESTIGATION AFTER THE REPORT TO US. OR BECAUSE THEY ARE IN HR CONSULTING FIRM, WE CAN HIRE THEM TO DO AN INVESTIGATION OF THAT'S WHAT WE CHOOSE TO DO. I WANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT THE REPORTS ARE CONFIDENTIAL TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY ALLOW YOU TO DO AN INVESTIGATION. WE CAN'T TELL PEOPLE IF YOU CALL THIS NUMBER IT'S GOING TO BE ENTIRELY CONFIDENTIAL.
ECAUSE WE ARE OBLIGATED, ONCE WE HEAR ABOUT THINGS, TO FOLLOW UP AND INVESTIGATE. AND INVESTIGATING REQUIRE SOME LEVEL OF DISCLOSURE.BVIOUSLY WE KEEP IT TO WHAT IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL. BUT IF SOMEBODY CALLS AND SAYS I DON'T WANT YOU TO TELL ANYBODY ABOUT THIS -- THAT CAN'T BE. I OCCASIONALLY HAVE PEOPLE WHO COME TO MY OFFICE AND TELL ME THAT.
I'M GOING TO TELL YOU SOMETHING BUT I DON'T WANT YOU TO TELL ANYBODY.UT THE FACT IS IS WHEN SOMEBODY REPORTS SOMETHING TO US THAT IS ILLEGAL, WE HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO INVESTIGATE.
AND WE CANNOT PROMISE THAT THAT WILL BE CONFIDENTIAL.
CLEARLY, WE WILL PROTECT THEIR INTEREST AND TAKE CARE OF THEM.
LIKE I SAID, WE NEED TO SEND THIS INFORMATION OUT TO EMPLOYEES. WE NEED TO HAVE THAT MEETING WITH HRD. AND THIS WILL BE SET UP AND READY TO GO AND EMPLOYEES CAN START TO USE IT.
I WOULD EXPECT -- AND THIS IS A NORMAL THING THAT INITIALLY THEY WILL GET A BUNCH OF PHONE CALLS.
IT HAPPENS WHEN YOU HOLD HARASSMENT TRAINING OR SOME OTHER KIND OF EYE-OPENING TRAINING AND PEOPLE SAY OH MY GOSH, I'VE SEEN THAT HAPPEN. OR I KNOW WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.
SO THEY WILL CALL. AND OBVIOUSLY, THINGS THAT ARE CRITICAL THEY WILL REPORT TO US.
THE OTHERS, THEY WILL ADVISE THEM HOW TO REPORT THAT.
SO WE CAN EXPECT I THINK SOME ACTIVITY EARLY ON.
AND THEN IT'LL SETTLE DOWN TO WHATEVER THE NORMAL LEVEL.
AND WE WILL DEAL WITH THE COMPLAINTS AS THEY COME IN.
AND I THINK THE CITY'S INTENT HAS ALWAYS BEEN -- AND MY
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POLICY HAS ALWAYS BEEN WHEN SOMEBODY MAKES THE COMPLAINT, THAT BECOMES MY NUMBER 1 PRIORITY.WE HAVE HAD THEM OVER THE YEARS, AND WE HAVE DEALT WITH THEM. AND WE WILL CONTINUE TO DO THAT, WHETHER WE DO IT INTERNALLY OR IF WE HIRE SOMEONE ELSE TO DO THE INVESTIGATION.
THE INTENT IS TO DO IT NOW, WHEN WE HEAR ABOUT IT.
>> DIRECTOR LAMB, LET ME JUST STOP YOU FOR A SECOND AND LET YOU GET A BREATH. WITH REGARDS TO HRD -- OUR UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THIS IS NOW LIVE BUT NOT ADVERTISED TO
SO AS SOON AS I GET THE WORD OUT TO EMPLOYEES? THEY CAN START CALLING. YES.
>> OKAY. AND THE PRIMARY INTENT OF THIS IS REPORTING NOT RESOLUTION, BUT WE COULD DECIDE -- THE CITY COULD DECIDE ALSO TO USE THEM AS PART OF THE RESOLUTION CHANGE?> YES. WE WOULD PAY THEM AN HOURLY BASIS TO DO AN INVESTIGATION OF THAT'S WHAT WE CHOOSE.
>> THAT'S NOT AUTOMATIC. AND I'M SURE WHAT WILL COME OUT OF THESE QUESTIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS IS THE REPORTING CHAIN. WE ARE PRETTY PAROCHIAL BECAUSE WE ARE COUNSEL. BUT WE CERTAINLY WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE ADEQUATELY INVOLVED AND NOTIFIED ABOUT ANY POTENTIAL CRITICAL INCIDENTS. FOR THE UPDATE FOR THE EMPLOYEE
>> DID YOU USE ANY OUTSIDE EXPERTS OR CONSULTANTS FOR THAT? FOR EXAMPLE, WAS HRD INVOLVED IN THE REVIEW OF OUR EMPLOYEE MANUAL?
THANK YOU. >> I TAKE THAT BACK.
IT TO GO OUTSIDE FOR REVIEW. I WASN'T INVOLVED WITH THAT.
>> SO THE OUTSIDE ATTORNEY -- WERE THEY AND HR ATTORNEY SPECIFICALLY THAT REVIEW --? AGAIN, THEY WERE JUST REVIEWING FOR ANY SORT OF CONFLICTS? THEY WEREN'T DIRECT IN SAYING THAT I THINK YOU SHOULD INCLUDE THIS OR THAT OR THE OTHER
THEY ADDED RECOMMENDATIONS. >> OKAY.
>> THANK YOU. THANK YOU FOR SPEARHEADING THIS EFFORT.HIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE FOUND CRITICAL TO IMPROVE THE SAFETY AND WELL-BEING OF THE 580 EMPLOYEES OF THE CITY OF CARMEL. SO THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> SOON TO BE 600!> SOON TO BE 600.
THANK YOU. YOU FOCUSED ON THIS.
AND I UNDERSTAND YOU STARTED VENTING COMPANIES THAT WE COULD CONSIDER. IN THIS PARTICULAR COMPANY, ARE THERE OTHER CITIES USING THIS COMPANY NOW?
>> I DO NOT KNOW IF THERE ARE OTHER CITIES.
THEY DID SEND US A LIST OF CLIENTS, BUT I DON'T HAVE THAT
USING A THIRD-PARTY AS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR EMPLOYEES TO VOICE THEIR CONCERNS AT THE WORKPLACE -- ARE THERE OTHER MUNICIPALITIES USING SOME SORT OF SERVICE LIKE THIS? AND IF SO, HAVE THEY BEEN SUCCESSFUL?
>> YES, THERE ARE OTHERS. AND I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU WOULD MEASURE SUCCESS. BUT I'M ASSUMING IF CALLS ARE COMING INTO THOSE AND THEY ARE BEING RESOLVED, THAT, TO ME, IS SUCCESS. SO YES, I WOULD SAY SO.
>> AND MY COLLEAGUE, COUNCILOR HANAN MENTIONED IF WE DECIDE TO USE THE THIRD PARTY TO INVESTIGATE, I HEARD YOU SAY AN
>> OKAY IF I STOP DO YOU KNOW THAT HOURLY RATE IS?
>> I THINK IT STARTS AT $150 AN HOUR.
IT DEPENDS ON WHAT WE ARE REQUESTING THEM TO DO.
BUT I THINK THEIR LOW-END RATE WAS $150 AN HOUR.
>> THANK YOU. >> I DID WANT TO ADD TOO THAT WE WILL UPDATE THE POLICY IN OUR HANDBOOK TO LIST THIS NUMBER. IT'S NOT GOING TO BE THE FIRST NUMBER FOR THEM TO CALL. BUT IT WILL BE PART OF THE PROGRESSION THAT IF YOU GET TO THE POINT WHERE YOU FEEL THAT EITHER YOU DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE MAKING YOUR COMPLAINT TO SOMEONE INTERNALLY OR YOU FEEL IT HASN'T BEEN HANDLED, THIS IS THE NUMBER YOU CALL.
SO WE WILL HAVE THAT NUMBER OUT THERE FOR PEOPLE.
AND WE WILL PUT IT IN OTHER VARIOUS PLACES.
BULLETIN BOARDS OR SOMETHING SO PEOPLE KNOW THAT IT'S AVAILABLE TO THEM. PEOPLE TEND TO FORGET UNLESS YOU REMIND THEM. SO WE WILL KEEP IT OUT THERE.
>> HAVE A QUESTION. I JUST WONDERED -- FROM MY NOTES, WHO WAS THE FIRM THAT DID THE REVIEW OF THE MANUAL?
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IF YOU NEED TO GET BACK TO ME --?>> IT WAS A COMPLETE REWRITE. WE WENT OVER IT MICROSCOPICALLY. AND I THINK BENJAMIN WAS
INVOLVED IN A LOT OF THAT. >> THANK YOU.
>> SO BARB, TO CLARIFY A COUPLE OF THINGS.
AS YOU SAID, IF HRD IS GOING TO INVESTIGATE, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A COST TO IT. ULTIMATELY, WHO DECIDES WHEN
HRD WILL INVESTIGATE SOMETHING? >> WE GET TO DECIDE HOW THAT PROCESS WILL BE HANDLED. I WOULD ASSUME IT WOULD BE ON A CASE-BY-CASE BASIS. BUT I ALSO WOULD ASSUME THAT WE WOULD ONLY EMPLOY THEM FOR THAT PURPOSE IF THERE WAS A PARTICULAR REASON. SO IF THERE ARE EXTENUATING CIRCUMSTANCES. I DON'T THINK WE NEED TO DO THAT IN MOST CASES. BUT WE SHOULD BE OPEN TO THAT ANYTIME WE FEEL THAT WE CAN'T ADEQUATELY DO IT OR FOR
WHATEVER REASON IN HOUSE. >> OKAY.
>> AND I WOULD THINK THE ATTORNEYS WOULD BE INVOLVED IN
AND THEN, THE DECISION MAKING PROCESS NEEDS TO BE FINE-TUNE
>> WHO WILL HRD BE REPORTING TO?>> ALL OF THOSE DETAILS
ARE STILL YET TO BE DETERMINED. >> OKAY.
TO BE CONTINUED. >> SO WE CAN EITHER SET IT UP SO THEY CAN REPORT TO ME OR SOMEONE ON THE COUNCIL.
OR THEY REPORT TO ME AND I REPORT TO THE COUNCIL.
HOWEVER WE WANT TO DO IT. >> AND OUTSIDE OF THEM BE AND AS TO INVESTIGATE SOMETHING, WHAT IS THEIR NORMAL ROLE? MANAGING THE CALL IN THE HOTLINE?
>> YES. THAT'S ALL THEY ARE DOING FOR
US. >> AND IT WILL JUST BE REPORTING BACK TO SOME ENTITY? WHETHER EXECUTIVE OR LEGISLATIVE?ND THEN THE DECISION WILL BEMADE?
>> RIGHT. AND THEN WHAT THEY WILL DO IS IF THEY GET A CALL, SOMEBODY WILL PROBABLY LEAVE A MESSAGE.
AND THEN THEY WILL FOLLOW UP. AND THEY FOLLOW UP WITHIN AN HOUR OR SURE. OF TIME.
AND THEN THEY GET MORE DETAILS SO THEY HAVE A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT'S INVOLVED.
AND THEY TALK TO THE EMPLOYEE. AND THEN, WHEN THEY FEEL THEY HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING AND A RECOMMENDATION FOR US, THEN THEY WILL CALL AND TELL WHOEVER WE DECIDED THEY WILL TALK TO AND GO OVER THE DETAILS. AND THOUGH ASK US TO WANT TO INVESTIGATE YOURSELF? DO YOU WANT TO HIRE US TO DO THAT? SO EACH CASE, I THINK, UNTIL WE GET MORE FAMILIAR WITH IT AT LEAST, EVERY CASE WILL BE ON A CASE-BY-CASE BASIS. AND WE WILL DECIDE HOW WE WANT
TO HANDLE THAT. >> SO JUST TO SUM UP.
SO I WOULD DEFINITELY SAY, AND HOPEFULLY WE ALL AGREE, THAT THIS IS A GOOD STEP HAVING A THIRD-PARTY REPORTING.
PARTICULARLY FOR WHEN EMPLOYEES NOT FEELING LIKE THEY ARE GETTING THEIR ISSUES PROPERLY ADDRESSED.
IT SOUNDS LIKE -- AND MAKE SURE I GOT THE LIST OF THINGS -- IT STILL NEEDS TO BE WORKED OUT. EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE HRD CONTRACTED IS THE REPORTING CHAIN? SO WHEN THEY DO RECEIVE A CRITICAL INCIDENT REPORT, WHO GETS NOTIFIED OF THAT? CERTAINLY, IT'S GOING TO BE OUR RECOMMENDATION THAT COUNSEL IS PART OF THAT RECORD REPORTING CHAIN? THE OTHER COMPONENT IS IT'S GREAT THAT THEY CAN BE AN ADDITIONAL ARM TO OUR RESOLUTION TO THIS. BUT WE DON'T WANT TO LEAVE THAT AS RANDOM CHANCE. SO TRYING TO BETTER DEFINE INDEPENDENT OF YOU OR THE MAYOR OR COUNSEL AS TO WHAT WOULD BE THE CRITERIA TO ENGAGE WITH THEM.
AND I WOULD HAVE TO THINK THERE WILL BE SOME GUIDANCE IF THERE WILL BE SEVERE ISSUES OR CHAIN OF COMMAND ISSUES.
PWE DEFINITELY NEED TO DEFINE THAT SO IT'S NOT AS ARBITRARY.
>> THEY DON'T EXPECT US TO USE THEY UNDERSTAND WE WILL DO MUCH
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OF THIS OURSELVES. >> CORRECT AND I THINK PART AND PARCEL OF THAT BUT WE DON'T WANT TO LEAVE UNMENTIONED IS WE HAVE THIS GREAT REPORTING SYSTEM BUT NOBODY KNOWS ABOUT IT. SO HOW ARE WE GOING TO ROLL OUT OUR EDUCATION TO FRONT-LINE PEOPLE AS WELL AS TO SUPERVISORS ? HOW TO PROPERLY FRAMED THAT AS YOU SAID? WE DON'T WANT THEM CALLING BECAUSE SOMEBODY SMELLED LIKE TUNA TODAY FOR LUNCH.
BUT THERE SHOULD NOT BE ANY INHIBITION TO USE IT EITHER.
SO THOSE ARE CERTAINLY THE THREE THINGS I'M SURE YOU ARE READY HAVE ON YOUR LIST. ONE OF THE NEXT STEPS IS THAT YOU ARE GOING TO MEET WITH THEM TO GO OVER SOME OF THIS?
AND I INVITED COUNSELOR FOR INCOME.
>> IF IT'S NEXT WEEK, I WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DO THAT.
I'M ON VACATION. >> SO WE WILL DEFINITELY WANT
TO DESIGNATE THAT. >> THE EXACT TIME AND DATE HASN'T BEEN SET YET.
RESUME OR SOMETHING. I THOUGHT OF SOMETHING ELSE BUT
I JUST FORGOT WHAT IT WAS. >> THANK YOU.
SO JUST SO I UNDERSTAND -- THERE COULD BE TIMES WHEN SOMEONE -- THIS WOULD BE THE FIRST THING THEY CALLED.
MAYBE FOR WHATEVER REASON, THEY DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE TELLING THEIR SUPERVISOR OR SOMEONE ABOUT A COMPLAINT.
WHICH I WOULD UNDERSTAND AND THEY COULD CALL THIS NUMBER.
WHAT ABOUT IF THERE IS AN INSTANCE WHERE THEY TOLD THEIR SUPERVISOR -- THEY WENT UP THE CHAIN OF COMMAND AND WAS NOT SATISFIED WITH ACTION BEING TAKEN.
THEY WOULD CALL THIS NUMBER, AND THEN THAT WOULD GO BACK TO THE SAME PEOPLE THAT KIND OF DIDN'T TAKE CARE OF THE
COMPLAINT THE FIRST TIME? >> YES, IT WOULD.
BUT AGAIN, THERE IS THAT AT A LEVEL OF ACCOUNTABILITY.
SOMEBODY OUTSIDE THE ORGANIZATION THAT WAS TELLING US YOU DIDN'T HANDLE THIS, IT'S NOT DONE -- YOU CAN'T JUST WALK
AWAY FROM THAT.>> IT WOULD STILL BE UP TO THE HR DIRECTOR OR THE EXECUTIVE TO THEN, AFTER ANOTHER COMPLAINT, TO THEN TAKE A DIFFERENT ACTION? X YES.
ONE OF TWO THINGS. ONE IS THEY ARE JUST NOT HAPPY -- IT'S BEEN RESOLVED AND THEY AREN'T HAPPY WITH IT.
THE OTHER IS THAT IT HASN'T BEEN RESOLVED, AND YOU NEED TO DO MORE TO DEAL WITH THE PROBLEM.O IF IT'S JUST A MATTER WHERE THEY AREN'T HAPPY WITH THE DECISION, YOU JUST NEED TO PROBABLY COMMUNICATE BETTER OR COMMUNICATE AGAIN.
AND SAY THIS DECISION HAS BEEN RESOLVED.
THERE WON'T BE ANYMORE. OR I'M SORRY WE DIDN'T RESOLVE THIS. WE DIDN'T SEE THROUGH ITS FULL RESOLUTION, SO NOW WE ARE GOING TO DO THAT.
AND IT COULD BE THEIR FIRST CALL.
THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT THAT THEY CALL SOMEONE ELSE FIRST.
OR THAT THEY NOTIFY SOMEONE ELSE FIRST.
THIS CAN BE THE FIRST CALL THEY MAKE.
>> I DON'T MEAN TO JUMP AHEAD, BUT WE TALK ABOUT ONE OF THE ISSUES IS MAKING SURE THAT THERE ARE TIMES WHEN THE COUNCIL MIGHT NEED TO KNOW ABOUT A HR SITUATION.
I WOULD PROPOSE IF THERE WAS A SITUATION THAT WENT TO THE CHAIN OF COMMAND, AND THE EMPLOYEE STILL DID NOT FEEL SATISFIED WITH THE REACTION, THEN THAT MIGHT BE AN INSTANCE WHERE THE COUNCIL HAS AN OUTSIDE BODY SHOULD BE ALERTED
TO WHAT'S HAPPENED? >> AND THAT'S REASONABLE.
EVEN IF IT'S JUST A MATTER THAT HAS BEEN RESOLVED BUT IF THERE IS A POTENTIAL FOR FURTHER ACTION ON THAT, THEN I THINK THE COUNCIL SHOULD BE INVOLVED. EVEN IF WE BELIEVE WE RESOLVED IT. IT'S IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO KNOW YOU MIGHT HEAR MORE ABOUT IT. SO I AGREE WITH YOU.EP.
>> OKAY. >> AND ONE OTHER THING IN RELATION TO A COUNSELOR HANNUM SAID.
THERE IS A WHOLE PACKET OF MATERIAL TO GIVE TO SUPERVISORS TO TELL THEM HOW TO TALK TO THEIR EMPLOYEES ABOUT THIS.
SO THERE IS QUITE A BIT OF DOCUMENTATION SO THAT EVERYONE AT EVERY LEVEL OF THE ORGANIZATION KNOWS WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.ND IT ENCOURAGES PEOPLE TO USE IT.
SO GOING BACK, I THINK WITHOUT A DOUBT, ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK COUNSEL WILL WANT IS SPECIFIC NOTIFICATION IN SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES. IF IT GETS ESCALATED TO AN OUTSIDE AGENCY, I WOULD THINK THAT WOULD BE ONE OF OUR RECOMMENDATIONS. AN AUTOMATIC WE NEED TO KNOW ABOUT IT. BECAUSE WHAT'S PLAN B? IF PLAN A WAS TO REPORT TO MY SUPERVISORS, AND NOW IT JUST LOOPS BACK TO MY SUPERVISORS, THAT'S NOT TERRIBLY
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ENCOURAGING.I THINK ANOTHER CHALLENGE FOR US AS A COUNSEL -- AND WE WILL CERTAINLY HAVE TO RUN UP THE FLAGPOLE WITH MR. OBERLANDER IS THIS SHOULD NOT BE THE ONE AND ONLY CIRCUMSTANCE WHERE COUNSEL IS NOTIFIED OF HR ISSUES.THIS WOULD JUST BE ONE EXAMPLE WHERE IF IT GETS ESCALATED TO AN OUTSIDE AGENCY THAT WE NEED TO BE NOTIFIED.
WE WILL WORK THROUGH THIS COMMITTEE AS WELL.
JUST TO CATCH EVERYBODY UP TO SPEED.
SO DIRECTOR LAMB WAS TALKING ABOUT THINGS THAT HAVE CHANGED IN THE LAST YEAR. ONE WAS AN INCIDENTAL UPDATING OF THE EMPLOYEE MANUAL. OUTSIDE COUNSEL WAS RETAINED TO REVIEW THAT. IT WAS AN HR COMPANY THAT LOOKED AT THAT. THIS HRD GROUP DID NOT REVIEW OUR POLICIES AND PROCEDURES, CORRECT?
>> THEY DID NOT. >> I WOULD THINK WITH REGARDS TO INVOLVING THEM AND THE ESCALATION REPORTING, I WOULD THINK WE NEED SOME UPDATES TO THE EMPLOYEE MANUAL ANYWAY.
BUT ALSO TO INVOLVE THEM AND WHAT THEY BELIEVE ARE BEST PRACTICES FOR REPORTING. WHICH COULD BE THE VERSION 2, PERHAPS, OF THE 2020 UPDATE AS WELL.
>> THEY HAVEN'T ASKED ME YET, BUT I'M SURE THEY WILL WANT TO SEE A COPY OF OUR POLICY. AND I BELIEVE OUR POLICY, OTHER THAN THIS, IS VERY THOROUGH AND COMPLETE.
BUT WE ARE OPEN TO ANY COMMENTS OR SUGGESTIONS THAT THEY HAVE.
AND IN ORDER TO MAKE IT EFFECTIVE, WE WILL DO WHAT IT
I WAS BEING QUIET. DID YOU DISCUSS ABOUT HOW TO HOLD ELECTED OFFICIALS COMPLIANT WITH THE CIVILIAN
MANUAL? >> WE HAVEN'T GOTTEN THERE YET.
>> I'LL WAIT. THANK YOU FOR THE REQUEST.
>> SURE. SO THOSE ARE AFFIRMATIVE STEPS THAT WE BELIEVE WILL HELP. THE OTHER THING THAT WE WILL CERTAINLY WANT TO BE INVOLVED IN AND BE AWARE OF IS WHAT'S THE EDUCATIONAL ROLLOUT PROGRAM FOR THE UPDATES? NOT JUST TO THE HRD REPORTING, BUT TO THE NEW EMPLOYEE MANUAL CHANGES. AND IMPORTANTLY, I'M CERTAINLY GOING TO WANT TO HEAR WHAT THE ONGOING PROCESSES.
SO IT'S NOT ONE AND DONE. AS YOU KNOW, WE HAVE NEW EMPLOYEES COMING IN. IT'S LIKE YOU DON'T THINK ABOUT THE FAUCET UNTIL THE FAUCET ISN'T WORKING.O HOW DO WE DO REGULAR UPDATES? WHETHER IT WOULD BE DONE INTERNALLY, OR HRD OR OTHER AGENCIES?ND WE GOT INTO THIS A LITTLE BIT WITH DIVERSIFYING OUR EDUCATION IS IT'S INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT FOR BOTH EMPLOYEES AND SUPERVISORS TO UNDERSTAND WHAT CONSTITUTES A HOSTILE WORKPLACE -- ENVIRONMENT. WHICH, I'M OLD, RIGHT? SO THAT'S CHANGED OVER TIME. SO MAKING SURE EMPLOYEES ARE AWARE OF THAT. I THINK THE OTHER COMPONENT THAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IS WHAT ARE WE DOING SPECIFICALLY TO TRAIN SUPERVISORS AND DIRECTORS? BECAUSE IN THIS CHAIN OF COMMAND, IF YOU CAN'T GET YOUR COWORKER TO STOP DOING SOMETHING, IT GOES TO YOUR DIRECT SUPERVISOR. THEN IT GOES TO YOUR DIRECTOR.
NONE OF THOSE PEOPLE HAVE HR BACKGROUNDS.
SO UNDERSTANDING BETTER WHAT IS THAT EDUCATION AND TRAINING THAT WE ARE DOING FOR SUPERVISORS ON HOW TO RESPOND? WHAT NEEDS TO BE ESCALATED AS WELL? AND THAT'S NOT REALLY LAID OUT IN THE EMPLOYEE MANUAL.
SO FOR ME, I'D LIKE TO HEAR MORE DEFINITIVELY, IF NOT TODAY, GOING FORWARD ON HOW WE ARE ACTUALLY GOING TO DO THAT EDUCATION. NOT JUST AWARENESS BY FRONTLINE FOLKS, BUT WHAT ARE WE DOING SPECIFICALLY TO TRAIN OUR SUPERVISORS AND DEPARTMENT HEADS?
>> COUNSELOR HANAN AND BARB -- IT WAS MY THOUGHT THAT A SUBSEQUENT MEETING WE COULD ASK DR. NIGHT TO COME IN AND TALK ABOUT THE LEADERSHIP PROGRAM AND HOW SOME OF THOSE ELEMENTS WILL TOUCH ON THAT AREA? IF THIS WILL BE ACCEPTABLE TO YOU? AND I KNOW HE SAID HE WOULD BE OPEN TO DOING THAT. IF YOU STILL THINK THAT WOULD BE ACCEPTABLE?> ABSOLUTELY. YES.
>> I THINK EVERYONE WOULD BE REALLY IMPRESSED WITH THE LEADERSHIP PROGRAM. HE, BARB AND HER TEAM HAS PUT TOGETHER THE ROLLOUT PLAN WHICH HAS BEEN SOMEWHAT INTERRUPTED BY COVID. COUNSELOR HANAN, YOU COULD
[00:35:08]
REACH OUT TO TIMOTHY KNIGHT AND SCHEDULE THAT?>> DEFINITELY. AND I THINK THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL FOR US TO UNDERSTAND AS COUNSEL, AS WELL AS OUR CONSTITUENTS TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WE ARE DOING TO CONTINUALLY IMPROVE. DIRECTOR LAMB, AS I MENTIONED THOSE TWO THINGS -- THE UPDATE, THE EMPLOYEE MANUAL, THE ENGAGEMENT OF HRD AND WE UNDERSTAND WE WILL BE ACTIVELY INVOLVED IN INTEGRATING, REPORTING, SELECTING AND MONITORING HRD. ARE THERE ANY OTHER RECOMMENDATIONS THAT ARE PERTINENT TO WHAT RECENTLY HAPPENED THAT ARE EITHER IN PROCESS OR THAT YOU WOULD RECOMMEND THAT THE COUNCIL FACILITATE?
>> NO, I WOULD REITERATE AGAIN ON WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT AT AN EARLIER MEETING. I THINK THIS WAS A VERY UNIQUE SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES THAT HASN'T ARISEN BEFORE.
I THINK THE POLICY THAT WE HAVE IN PLACE HAS BEEN EFFECTIVE.
BUT OBVIOUSLY IT NEEDED TO BE UPDATED IN LIGHT OF THE RECENT SITUATION. BUT I DON'T HAVE ANY OTHER RECOMMENDATIONS. ALTHOUGH I THINK THERE WAS SOME VERBIAGE THAT THE COUNCIL WANTED TO SEE.
AND COUNSELOR CAMPBELL TALK TO ME ABOUT IT ONCE.
BUT I HAVEN'T SEEN THAT. SO BEFORE I AMEND ANYTHING, I PWANT TO MAKE SURE THAT IF THER IS SPECIFIC LANGUAGE THAT I SEE THAT. BUT I DO BELIEVE OUR POLICY HAS BEEN EFFECTIVE AND HAS BEEN WORKING.
AND I DON'T SEE THE NEED FOR OTHER CHANGES.
AGAIN, I THINK THIS IS PREVIEWED BY PRESIDENT FINKAM IS AS WE SAY IN THE SAFETY WORLD -- IT'S SWISS CHEESE.
NORMALLY THERE ARE MECHANISMS TO CATCH -- WHETHER HR ISSUES OR SAFETY ISSUES. THAT THEY DON'T PROPAGATE BECAUSE SOMETHING STOPS IT. IN THIS CASE, ALL THE HOLES IN THE SWISS CHEESE LINED UP TO GET THE PERFECT STORM OF
SITUATION. >> I LIKE THAT ANALOGY.
BUT MY GOAL FROM A SAFETY STANDPOINT IS HOW DO WE CLOSE THE HOLES IN THE SWISS CHEESE? AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE THE CONVERSATION GOES NEXT. WHAT ARE MECHANISMS THAT WE AS A LEGISLATIVE BRANCH CAN DO TO BE ABLE TO PREVENT THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES -- UNUSUAL AS IT WAS? WE DON'T WANT TO SEE THIS HAPPEN AGAIN.
AND JUST A BRIEF SUMMARY IF YOU LOOK AT OUR POLICIES AND PROCEDURES IS -- AS YOU HAVE ALREADY OUTLINED IS IF AN EMPLOYEE HAS AN ISSUE TRY TO RESOLVE IT WITH THE OTHER EMPLOYEE. IF THAT DOESN'T WORK GO TO THE DIRECT SUPERVISOR.F THAT DOESN'T WORK GO TO THE DEPARTMENT HEAD. IF THAT DOESN'T WORK GO TO HR.
IF THAT DOESN'T WORK, WHERE DO YOU GO FROM THERE?
I HAVE A QUESTION. >> CAN I GET YOU IN A MINUTE?
>> OKAY. >> THERE ARE SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE THE DIRECTOR -- IF THE DIRECTOR IS THE ISSUE, THEN THE MAYOR BECOMES THE ARBITRATOR.
OR IF THE HR AS WELL. SO IDON'T THINK WE CAN DO IT TONIGHT. BUT SORT OF DRAWING THOSE LINES AND LOOKING AT WHERE THERE ARE POTENTIAL LOOPHOLES, SO TO SPEAK , WHERE WE MAY HAVE SOME GAPS IN TERMS OF COVERAGE IS AN IMPORTANT THING TO DO. COUNSELOR?
>> THANK YOU.O I DON'T WANT TO GET AHEAD OF OURSELVES.
I KNOW IN THE PREVIOUS MEETING WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE MAYOR. THINKING ABOUT APPOINTING DEPUTY MAYOR OR DEPUTY MAYORS? IT SAYS THE MAYOR IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ADMINISTRATING ALL DISCIPLINE TO THE DEPARTMENT HEAD. THE DEPUTY MAYOR HAS ALL THE POWER OR THE MAYOR, WITH THE DEPUTY MAYOR BE ABLE TO EMPLOYEE DISCIPLINE WITH THE EMPLOYEE?
>> I'VE NEVER SAID THE DEPUTY MAYOR WOULD HAVE ALL THE POWER.
AND I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND THAT THE MAYOR DELEGATE THAT RESPONSIBILITY. BECAUSE THE DEPUTY MAYOR AS CONFIGURED RIGHT NOW WOULD BE OTHER DIRECTORS.ND HAVING DIRECTORS DISCIPLINING DIRECTORS --
>> NO, I UNDERSTAND. JOHN, ANY THOUGHTS?
>> YEAH. THE COUNSELOR ACTUALLY SETS WHAT DUTIES THE DEPUTY MAYOR HAS.
SO COUNSEL CAN DECIDE. A LOT OF CITIES COMPARED TO WHAT THE STATUTE SAYS -- THE DEPUTY MAYOR CUNNINGHAM HAS ALL THE POWERS OF THE MAYOR IF THE MAYOR CAN'T USE THOSE POWERS.
IF HE IS INCAPACITATED OR THERE NEEDS TO BE AN ACT ACTING EXECUTIVE. I DON'T KNOW IF THAT HELPS.
BUT COUNSEL SETS THE DUTIES OF WHAT A DEPUTY MAYOR CAN DO.
>> AND TO THAT POINT, AGAIN, THIS IS IN THE CIVILIAN PERSONNEL POLICY HANDBOOK. SET AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC? IT'S NOT A CONFIDENTIAL DOCUMENT?
>> IT'S NOT CONFIDENTIAL.T'S ON OUR HR PORTION OF THE
WEBSITE. >> AS YOU MENTIONED, THE 80/90 ROLE -- IT'S PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWARD.
WHAT IS THAT CHAIN OF COMMAND TO BE ABLE TO RESOLVE THIS.
[00:40:10]
THE SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES AS IT CURRENTLY STANDS IS IF THE DEPARTMENT HEAD IS THE ALLEGED OFFENDER, OR IF THE DIRECTOR OF HUMAN RESOURCES IS THE ALLEGED OFFENDER, THEN WE NEED TO INVOLVE CORPORATE COUNSEL? IS THAT A NEW CHANGE INVOLVING CORPORATE COUNSEL? OR IS THAT EXISTING?>> THAT EXISTED BEFORE. >> OKAY.ND OF CORPORATE COUNSEL THEMSELVES ARE INVOLVED, THE NET BECOMES CHALLENGING. SO WE HAVE THIS ESCALATION PATHWAY. IF IT'S A DEPARTMENT HEAD, IT'S A SPECIAL CASE AND WE NEED TO INVOLVE CORPORATE COUNSEL AS WELL AS THE HR DIRECTOR. IF IT'S CORPORATE COUNSEL, OBVIOUSLY THEY CAN'T INVESTIGATE THEMSELVES.
SO THE MAYOR GETS INVOLVED. >> THAT'S VERY TRICKY.
GOING TO ASK COUNSELOR FOR INCOME BECAUSE I KNOW YOU HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT THIS -- ALL OF THESE THINGS GET ESCALATED.
ALL THINGS ROLL A PILL TO CORPORATE COUNSEL.
AND THEN THE MAYOR. AND IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, THAT WAS NOT EFFECTIVE. SO THE CHALLENGE BECOMES -- AND THIS IS INDEPENDENT DESKTOP THIS HAS TO BE INDEPENDENT OF TIM HANNON AND BARB LAM AND JIM BRAINARD.
THIS HAS TO WORK NO MATTER WHO WAS THE MAYOR OR DIRECTOR OR COUNSEL -- HOW TO AVOID THE SORT OF LOOP.
HRD COULD POTENTIALLY BE AN ISSUE.
BUT IT WOULD LOOP BACK INTO OUR OWN SYSTEM.
AND IT'S NOT A PLAN B SO TO SPEAK.
SO AGAIN, I'M GOING TO ASK PRESIDENT FINKAM BECAUSE YOU HAVE HAD THOUGHTS ABOUT THIS AS WELL.
>> I WANT TO START WITH BARB. IF YOU COULD HAVE HANDLED THIS A DIFFERENT WAY, THIS PAST ISSUE WHERE CORPORATION COUNSEL AND THE MAYOR WERE INVOLVED IN A COMPLAINT, HOW WOULD YOU HAVE
CRAFTED IT? >> I'M NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND
THE QUESTION. >> IN THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE THAT WE HAVE BEEN DEALING WITH, HOW WOULD YOU HAVE CRAFTED THE ORDINANCE OR POLICY DIFFERENTLY? SO THAT WE COULD HAVE AVOIDED SO MUCH CONFUSION?
>> PROBABLY TO BRING IN OUTSIDE COUNSEL RIGHT FROM THE
BEGINNING. >> THAT'S WHAT I WONDERED.
IF THE CORPORATION COUNSEL IS INVOLVED, WE JUST TAKE THAT OUT
>> BECAUSE IT SEEMS LIKE YOU COULDN'T MAKE IT SOMEONE WHO WORKS FOR THEM. AND YOU HAVE THE MAYOR INVOLVED. AND THAT'S SUPER CHALLENGING.
AN WE ADD THAT TO OUR POLICY? >> SURE.
>> IF YOU WOULD HAVE ANY OPPOSITION TO THAT? SECONDLY, I THINK BECAUSE IT WAS ELEVATED TO A DIRECTOR LEVEL, IN THIS CASE APPROPRIATION OF COUNSEL, I WOULD THINK THE COUNCIL SHOULD HAVE NOTIFICATION IF IT'S AT A
>> BECAUSE NOW AGAIN THAT INVOLVES A MAY ORAL APPOINTEE.
AND IF THE MAYOR AT THE TIME DIDN'T WANT THAT BAD NEWS TO GET OUT, WE COULD STILL HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM.
WHERE A COMPLAINT ISN'T BEING HANDLED IN A TIMELY OR APPROPRIATE MANNER. BECAUSE THE MAYOR DIDN'T WANT THE BAD NEWS OF AN APPOINTEE. HOPEFULLY IT NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN. OR IT NEVER HAPPENS PERIOD I SHOULD SAY. THE OTHER THING WE DISCUSSED AT SOME POINT A FEW MONTHS AGO WAS SINCE WE ARE HAVING MR. OBERLANDER COME TO US QUARTERLY TO PRESENT LITIGATION IN EXECUTIVE SESSION, COULD WE ALSO HAVE THAT -- BECAUSE I THINK WE DISCUSSED IF SOMETHING HAD BEEN ELEVATED.
IF AN EMPLOYEE COMPLAINT HAD BEEN ELEVATED AND IT WASN'T HANDLED APPROPRIATELY -- ACTUALLY THAT'S NOT TRUE.
WHAT WE SAID WAS HE WOULD DISCUSS ALL EMPLOYEE COMPLAINTS OF A CERTAIN LEVEL OF SIGNIFICANCE.
VIOLENCE. HE WOULD DISCLOSE THAT AS THOSE QUARTERLY MEETINGS.ND I JUST WANTED BOTH OF YOUR TAKES ON THAT. BECAUSE IT'S BEEN A LITTLE TIME AND I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WERE AT THAT MEETING JOHN?
BUT YOUR TAKE ON THAT AS WELL? >> I THINK THAT WOULD BE A GOOD POLICY TO HAVE. AND THE DIRECTOR COULD INFORM YOU -- ALL THE ISSUES AND WHICH ONES HAVE BEEN RESOLVED AND WHICH HAVE BEEN UNRESOLVED. AND THEN YOU COULD KEEP TRACK OF THAT. AND YES, I THINK A REGULAR REPORTING PROCESS WOULD BE GOOD IDEA.
>> THE THOUGHT WAS TO BE NOTIFIED AT THE TIME OF THE COMPLAINT BECAUSE IT HIT THAT SIGNIFICANCE LEVEL.
[00:45:05]
>> IT'S BEEN RESOLVED. IT'S ONGOING.
THE EMPLOYEE HAS RESIGNED. THEY HAVE FILED SUIT.
I JUST THOUGHT -- THAT ALLOWS US A COUPLE OF TOUCH POINTS TO BE INVOLVED IN THE PROCESS. SO JOHN?
>> I WOULD JUST ADD THAT THE POLICY DOES STATE CURRENTLY THAT IF THE ALLEGATION INVOLVES CORPORATION COUNSEL, THAT OUTSIDE COUNSEL MUST BE RETAINED.
IT DOES SAY THAT CURRENTLY. SO WE DO HAVE TO DO THAT
ALREADY. >> IS THAT A REVISION?
>> THAT WAS IN THE 2020 UPDATE. >> OKAY.
SO IT JUST WASN'T FOLLOWED? >> THERE WAS -- EVERYTHING WAS
>> THAT'S THE PROBLEM. BECAUSE IT WENT ON AND ON AND ON AND OUTSIDE COUNSEL WAS BROUGHT IN.
>> IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO PUT SOME KIND OF TIME POLICY ON IT? AND NOBODY KNOWS HOW LONG AN INVESTIGATION WILL TAKE.
SO IF YOU HAD SOME SORT OF TIMING POLICY -- IF IT WASN'T RESOLVED IN A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME, THEY COULD NOTIFY
COUNSEL. >> I THINK THAT'S WHAT THEY PROBABLY -- IN MY TERMS? IGNORED FOR MONTHS.
AND FINALLY, ACTION WAS TAKEN. I FEEL LIKE -- IF WE COULD HAVE A REASONABLE TIME SPAN? YOU NEED TIME TO INVESTIGATE.
BEFORE YOU DECIDE IF IT NEEDS ELEVATED FOR OUTSIDE COUNSEL, RIGHT? I ASSUME THERE IS AN INITIAL
REVIEW THAT HAS TO BE DONE? >> YEAH.
BUT AT THE ALLEGATION INVOLVES CORPORATE COUNSEL, THAT IS PROBABLY SOMETHING WE SHOULD BRING OUTSIDE COUNSEL IN
SOONER. >> FOR ALL CLAIMS OF A CERTAIN ISSUE, WE SHOULD HAVE A CLOCK ON IT.
AND THEN AFTER IF THAT TIME PERIOD IS NOT MET, NOTICE PROVIDED TO COUNSEL. IT'S NOT THAT YOU CAN KNOW HOW LONG AN INVESTIGATION WILL TAKE.
BUT AT LEAST YOU'LL BE AWARE OF WHAT'S GOING ON.>> RIGHT.
BUT IT ALSO POINTS COUNTABILITY THERE.
IF YOU DELEGATED IT -- THERE IS AN UNDERSTANDING THAT YOU WILL GET AFTER IT. THAT THERE IS SOME CERTAINTY TO
WHAT THE PROCESS IS. >> I SEE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.
>> BECAUSE IF THERE IS NO -- WILL DO AN INVESTIGATION -- WELL, YOU CAN DO IT IN 2022 AND STILL FOLLOW THE POLICY.
BUT NOT TREAT THE EMPLOYEE IN A WAY TO MAKE THEM FEEL VALUED.
AND CREATE A SAFE ENVIRONMENT FOR THEM.
AND THAT'S MY MAIN CONCERN. >> OF COURSE.
AND OF COURSE THERE ARE COMPLICATIONS THAT CAN INVOLVE CORPORATE COUNSEL. FINDING ONES THAT DON'T HAVE CONFLICT CAN BE DIFFICULT. GOING BACK TO THE REPORT -- WE JUST HAVE TO BE CAREFUL WITH PENDING LITIGATION REPORTS.
IF THERE IS AN EMPLOYEE COMPLAINT THAT IS THREATENED LITIGATION, WE CAN TALK ABOUT THAT IN THE LITIGATION REPORT.
BUT IN THE EXECUTIVE SESSION, WE HAVE TO STICK TO WHAT THOSE TOPICS ARE. SO IF IT'S PENDING OR THREATENING LITIGATION WE CAN TALK ABOUT IT.
IF WE WANT TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO DISCUSS EMPLOYEE COMPLAINT THAT HASN'T RISEN TO THAT LEVEL YET?
I CAN LOOK IN -- IN THE CODE. >> YEAH.
THESE ARE THE HIGH-RISK THINGS THAT COULD ARISE LITIGATION.
IF NOT, SO BE IT, WE HAVE TO FIND A WAY TO DO IT THROUGH
EMAIL OR MEMO OR SOMETHING. >> IF SOMEBODY FILES COMPLAINTS WITH THE EEOC, I WOULD COUNT THAT AS THREATENED LITIGATION.
BECAUSE THE EEOC CAN SUE YOU AFTER THE INVESTIGATION.
>> EXECUTIVE SESSION -- THAT IS FOR PENDING WHAT LEGISLATION
BUT IS IN IT FOR HR ISSUES? >> IT CAN BE.
>> I THINK IT'S ALREADY COVERED.
>> THERE IS ONE FOR JOB PERFORMANCE.
[00:50:04]
ALREADY COVERED BY THAT BY STATE STATUTE.THE OTHER THING TO GO A LITTLE FURTHER -- I LIKE THE IDEA OF US FINDING OUT ABOUT THIS. ESPECIALLY IF IT'S AT THE DIRECTOR LEVEL AT OUR QUARTERLY MEETING THAT WE WILL NOW HAVE.
IF IT'S A DIRECTOR LEVEL? THINK WE SHOULD BE NOTIFIED WITHIN 10 DAYS. SO WE KNOW IT'S COMING.
AND SO WE KNOW IT'S ALREADY BEING ACTED ON.
BECAUSE IT COULD BE 90 DAYS. IF WE JUST HAD A MEETING AND THE REPORT WAS THE NEXT DAY? IT WOULD BE 90 DAYS LATER.
THAT'S TOO FAR. >> YEAH.ND THAT'S WHAT I WAS SUGGESTING, DIRECT LEVEL OR NOT, IF IT'S A CERTAIN TYPE OF
AND I WOULD PUT THAT WITHIN 10 DAYS.
AND THEN WE GET THE UPDATE AT THE QUARTERLY MEETING.
>> THAT WOULD GIVE US TIME. SOME COMPLAINTS ARE WITHOUT MERIT. BUT THAT WOULD GIVE US TIME TO DETERMINE IF THERE WAS ANY MERIT.
>> IS 10 DAYS ENOUGH FOR THAT? BECAUSE IF IT HAS NO MERIT, YOU
FIGURE THAT OUT PRETTY QUICK. >> YEAH.
AND OUR GOAL IS WHATEVER REPORTING YOU WANT TO HAVE, WE WILL PROVIDE IT. WE ARE FULLY ON BOARD WITH
THAT. >> SO LET ME GIVE YOU A RECAP.
AND THEN WE WILL OPEN UP TO QUESTIONS.
SO WHAT I HAVE HEARD AND AGREE WITH DIRECTIONALLY IS THAT ONE OF THE ISSUES IS COUNSEL NOTIFICATION? AND AS PART OF OUR RECOMMENDATIONS, WE WANT CERTAIN TRIGGERS THAT WOULD AUTOMATICALLY NOTIFY COUNSEL? AND TIME LIMITS TO THAT NOTIFICATION.
I HAVE A PLACEHOLDER HERE FOR 10 MINUTES.
RIGHT NOW -- 10 DAYS! [LAUGHTER] SORRY! 10 DAYS. I WANT IT SOLVED BEFORE YOU GET TO IT. 10 DAYS.
THE LIST THAT I HAVE MIGHT NOT BE ALL-INCLUSIVE AS WE ALL THINK THROUGH THIS IS ANY INVOLVEMENT WITH HRD.
SO IF ANYTHING GOES TO THE HOTLINE, WE WOULD EXPECT REPORTING. WE WILL REQUIRE THAT.
I'VE HEARD DIRECTOR LEVEL ISSUE.
ANYTIME DIRECTOR LEVEL IS INVOLVED AS THE POTENTIAL OFFENDER -- IF THAT'S CORRECT -- NOT THAT IT JUST WENT TO THEM, BUT THEY ARE ACTUALLY THE SUBJECT -- DIRECTOR OR ABOVE I
WOULD GUESS. >> EVEN IF IT'S LOWER THAN
SO DIRECTOR LEVEL ISSUE -- LEVEL OF OFFENSE.
WHICH I LOOKED. THERE IS HR BEST PRACTICES THAT WOULD DEFINE ESCALATIONS AND LEVELS OF INFRACTION.
OR WHATEVER YOU WOULD USE AS THE TERMINOLOGY.
AND WE WOULD HAVE TO DEFINE THAT.
BUT IN ADDITION TO THAT, WHAT I HAVE HEARD AND SUPPORT IS ROUTINE REPORTING. SO THE IDEA IS WE ARE ALREADY GETTING QUARTERLY UPDATES BY CORPORATE COUNSEL ON PENDING LITIGATION. IF WE COULD ADD NOT AS AN ADDITIONAL ISSUE UNDER EXECUTIVE SESSION, THE HR DIRECTOR MIGHT BE APPROPRIATE TO NOTIFY US OF ALL HR ISSUES THAT ARE PENDING. NO MATTER THE LEVEL I THINK THAT'S THE WAY WE DO LAWSUITS AS WELL.
WE ARE INFORMED EVEN IF IT'S A HIGH ISSUE ORAL LOW ISSUE.
WE ARE AT LEAST INFORMED OF THE NUMBER OF LAWSUITS THAT HAVE BEEN BROUGHT. SO AT THE QUARTERLY SESSION, WE WOULD NEED A 10 DAY NOTIFICATION BUT WE WOULD LIKE THE REPORT OF WHAT ARE THE HR ISSUES THAT HAVE BEEN BROUGHT BEFORE YOU. HOW MANY REPORTS, ETC. SO THAT WOULD BE A ROUTINE QUARTERLY THING.
I THINK THAT COULD BE ACCOMPLISHED AS WELL.
THE OTHER THING THAT I THINK ALL OF US ARE CONCERNED ABOUT, IN ADDITION TO TIME LIMITS OF REPORTING IS TIMELINESS TO RESOLUTION.HICH I THINK IS ALSO THE ISSUE SETTING THE EXPECTATION OF ONCE AN HR ISSUE IS RAISED, WHAT WOULD BE THE TIME TO RESOLUTION? UNDERSTANDING SOMETHING CAN BE RESOLVED QUICKLY AND SOME MAY TAKE TIME.
SO HERE AGAIN, I MIGHT JUST BE PULLING A NUMBER OUT OF MY HAT IF I SAY 10 DAYS OR 45 DAYS. AND CERTAINLY MINOR VERSUS MAJOR. BUT IT'S IMPORTANT THAT IN THE EMPLOYEE MANUAL THAT THERE IS AN EXPECTATION THAT IS WRITTEN DOWN IN TERMS OF TIME TO RESOLUTION.
I DON'T THINK WE WILL GET TO THAT TODAY.
BUT IT'S PROBABLY HERE BASED ON BEST PRACTICES WHAT THAT WOULD BE. IN THE INCIDENT THAT WE ARE ALL AWARE OF, IT WAS LONGER THAN IT SHOULD'VE BEEN.
SO I ALSO HAVE ON MY LIST FOR RECOMMENDATIONS -- DON'T HAVE THE NUMBER TODAY -- WOULD BE TIMELINESS TO RESOLUTION THAT
[00:55:13]
SHOULD BE BASED UPON BEST PRACTICES.AND IT SHOULD BE REASONABLE. NOT TOO LITTLE OR TOO SHORT.
SO IF WE SAID AS A BLANKET 30 DAYS, MANY TIMES IT CAN'T BE RESOLVED IN 30 DAYS. BUT COULD THAT BE 90 DAYS? THAT'S WHERE I THINK LOOKING AT EXTERNAL BEST PRACTICES WOULD BE HELPFUL AS WELL. SO THAT'S MY SUMMARY OF THINGS THAT I HAVE HEARD.THER COMMENTS OR THOUGHTS?
>> I HAVE SOME QUESTIONS FOR YOU JOHN AND YOU CAN ALWAYS COME BACK TO US IF YOU CAN ANSWER.
I LIKE A LOT OF WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.
BUT I WANT TO MAKE SURE WE GET SPECIFICS.
I'M HESITANT TO USE -- AM I WRONG TO BE HESITANT TO USE AN ACTUAL NUMBER? TO SAY AN INVESTIGATION HAS TO BE COMPLETED IN THIS LONG? BECAUSE IF AND VEGAS:INVESTIGATION NEEDS LONGER TO DO BY THE VICTIM, ON A COURT CASE, THERE IS GENERAL LANGUAGE TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE
ARE DRAGGING THEIR FEET. >> YEAH.
YOU CAN SAY IT'S AN EXPEDITED PROCESS.
THAT TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE, ESSENTIALLY.
>> IS IT UNREASONABLE TO ASK OF A RESPONSE IN A CERTAIN PERIOD
OR NOTIFICATION OR STATUS UPDATE IF IT TAKES LONGER THAN A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME TO THE COUNCIL.
>> I WOULD SUGGEST THAT. THAT IF THERE IS A COMPLAINT, THAT YOU DESERVE TO HAVE YOUR COMPLAINT RESPONDED TO BY HR OR THE EXECUTIVE WITHIN A CERTAIN PERIOD OF TIME.
EVEN IF IT'S NOT THE FULL RESPONSE.
YOU DESERVE TO HAVE A RESPONSE. I THINK THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING TO PUT IN THERE. AND ANOTHER THING WE TALKED ABOUT NOTIFICATION OF THE CITY COUNCIL.
I SUPPORT THAT.EPARTMENT HEAD -- MAKES PERFECT SENSE.
COMPLAINTS THAT REACH TO A SERIOUS ENOUGH NATURE -- HOW DO WE MAKE THAT SPECIFIC ENOUGH THAT IT WORKS INTO THE CODE?
WHAT WOULD YOU RECOMMEND THERE? >> BARB MIGHT BE ABLE TO ANSWER THIS A LITTLE BETTER. BUT YOU WOULD LOOK TO BULLYING OR HARASSMENT -- SOME SORT OF CLAIM THAT MIGHT EXPOSE THE CITY TO LIABILITY WOULD BE A GOOD MEASURE OF THAT.
>> OKAY. SO SOMETHING THAT WOULD HAVE
POTENTIAL LEGAL ACTION? >> EXACTLY.
>> OKAY. SO THAT'S THE STANDARD WE WOULD BE USING? OKAY.
AND FINALLY, THIS HRD -- IF WE GOT ALL COMPLAINTS FROM THAT, I GUESS I'M NOT OPPOSED TO THAT. BUT I'M WONDERING -- ARE WE GOING TO GET THE ONES THAT WE DON'T WANT TO? LIKE SOMEBODY'S SMELLY TUNAFISH SANDWICH FOR LUNCH? OR IF THEY ARE CALLING THIS LINE -- IT'S OPEN TO ANYONE.
SO ARE WE GOING TO GET FLOODED WITH COMPLAINTS THAT MAYBE THE
COUNCIL SHOULDN'T BE RECEIVING? >> IT'S VERY POSSIBLE.
I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY WAY TO KNOW.
I'M SURE WE'LL GET SOME THAT WE DON'T REALLY NEED TO KNOW ABOUT. BUT I DON'T NECESSARILY WANT TO BE THE ONE TO SAY THAT. BECAUSE I'M HEARING YOU SAY YOU WANT TO BE AN INDEPENDENT FACTOR.
>> WILL WE GET NAMES TOO? >> I WOULD GIVE NAMES IF I THOUGHT THAT THERE NEEDED TO BE FURTHER -- IF IT WAS A SERIOUS INCIDENT. IF IT WERE A MINOR INCIDENT? I DON'T EVEN WANT NAMES MYSELF IF SOMEONE IS CALLING TO TALK
ABOUT THIS SMELLY SANDWICH! >> YEAH, I DON'T THINK THE COUNCIL NEEDS TO KNOW SO-AND-SO DOESN'T LIKE SO-AND-SO AT WORK.
THE DIRECTORS CAN HANDLE THOSE THINGS.
BUT IF IT'S A SERIOUS NATURE, MAYBE USE THE SAME STANDARD THAT WE PUT IN THERE? THAT IF IT'S A SERIOUS NATURE, WE SHOULD BE KNOWING ABOUT IT EARLIER RATHER THAN LATER.
>> SO I'LL JUST REITERATE WHAT I'VE ALREADY SAID.
NONE OF THIS IS IN STONE.E WILL CERTAINLY LOOK TO HR BEST PRACTICES. COUNSELOR WORRALL?
>> FOLLOWING UP ON COUNSELOR ESSENCE COMMENTS, I GUESS CERTAINLY SOMETHING COULD ALWAYS HAPPEN.
THE PHONE MAY NEVER RING.HO KNOWS? BUT I WOULD CAUTION AGAINST THERE BEING A VETTING OR DISTILLING PROCESS. SO IF WE ARE GOING TO DO THIS, I DON'T CARE IF I HEAR ABOUT 100 SMELLY SANDWICHES.
I DON'T CARE. YOU KNOW, SEND THEM ON.
AND WE CAN ALWAYS TWEAK IT OR FINE-TUNE IT LATER.UT IF WE ARE GOING TO DO IT, LET'S DO IT.
AND IF WE ARE GOING TO DO IT, THIS IS MY JOB.
SO DON'T HOLD BACK. THAT'S MY RECOMMENDATION.>> AND I WOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT US GETTING NAMES.
I JUST WANT TO KNOW THE COMPLAINT HAS BEEN FILED.
I DON'T WANT TO PUT A WET BLANKET ON SOMEBODY USING HRD'S
[01:00:01]
PHONE NUMBER. I WOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT THAT. YES, WE WANT THE COMPLAINT.WE WANT TO KNOW A COMPLAINT ABOUT HARASSMENT WAS FILED.
BECAUSE WE ARE GOING TO ASK WHERE IS THAT HEADING AND WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH IT? DID I GET RESPONDED TO IN A TIMELY MANNER? WAS THIS FOUND TO HAVE VALIDITY? IS THE CITY INVESTIGATING INTERNALLY? DON'T THINK WE NEED WHO IS INVOLVED.
>> OKAY. >> UNLESS THERE ARE EXTENUATING CIRCUMSTANCES. I DON'T THINK EMPLOYEES WOULD
SO NOT UNTIL THE POINT WHERE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT POTENTIAL
LITIGATION? >> AT THAT POINT? YES, WE WOULD GET MORE DETAILS. BUT THERE WILL BE A LOT OF DUE DILIGENCE DONE. THE EMPLOYEE WILL HAVE BEEN HEARD. THERE WILL HAVE BEEN POTENTIAL -- I'M TRYING TO THINK OF THE WORD THAT I WANT.
RESPONSES TO THE EMPLOYEE ABOUT EITHER RECTIFYING THE SITUATION TO MAKE IT TOLERABLE. OR DISCIPLINE.
WHO KNOWS? LOTS OF THINGS BEFORE THAT HAPPENS. AND WE WILL HEAR ABOUT IT IN THE PENDING LITIGATION MEETING WITH NAMES.
SO I FEEL LIKE -- IF WE PUT NAMES ON THIS, WE WILL NOT GET THE CALLS. WE WILL TAKE AWAY WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO.ROVIDE A CONFIDENTIAL SOURCE TO FILE A
COMPLAINT. >> THAT IS CONSISTENT WITH THE PROMISE OF CONFIDENTIALITY TO THE EXTENT AS POSSIBLE.
SO YOU DON'T BRING IN EVERYBODY AT THAT POINT.
>> WE COULD HAVE A COUNSELOR TO ABUSE THAT.
AND THAT WOULD BE HORRIBLE FOR THE EMPLOYEE TO VIOLATE THE CONFIDENTIALITY THAT WAS PROMISED TO THEM.
>> PRESIDENT FINKAM, I AGREE. THERE IS NO NEED FOR NAME TO COME UP. ESPECIALLY IF IT GETS SOLVED.
I DON'T THINK IT WOULD BE NECESSARY.
I THINK IF IT IS SOMETHING THAT IS NOT BEING SOLVED AND DRAGGING ON WHERE WE NEED MORE DETAILS.
ONE THING I WANTED TO SAY ON THE RECORD WAS DIRECTOR LAMB, YOUR TENURE AS OUR HR DIRECTOR HAS BEEN IMPECCABLE.
I HAVE THE UTMOST CONFIDENCE IN YOUR DEPARTMENT.
I HAVE THE UTMOST CONFIDENCE IN YOUR ABILITY TO MAKE CHANGES TO BETTER YOUR SYSTEM. THERE IS ALWAYS AN EXCEPTION TO EVERY RULE. THINGS HAPPEN.
BUT I WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT I HOLD YOU IN THE HIGHEST REGARD FOR THE JOB YOU HAVE DONE FOR THE CITY.
AND I APPRECIATE IT. THANK YOU.
>> SO TO RECAP AGAIN, WHAT WE HAVE IN FRONT OF US IS WE NEED TO IMPROVE COUNCIL NOTIFICATION.
OR SAYING TENTATIVELY 10 DAYS. RIGHT NOW, WE HAVE ON OUR IST AND WE WILL CERTAINLY BET THIS BOTH INTERNALLY AS WELL AS WITH EXTERNAL BEST PRACTICES. HRD INVOLVEMENT.
WE WILL WORK THROUGH IT. I TEND TO BE WHERE COUNSELOR WORRALL IS. SEND US ALL OF THEM.AND WE NEED TO TURN UP THE FILTER, WE WILL TURN UP THE FILTER.
BUT PART OF IT LETS US KNOW IF THE SYSTEM IS WORKING.
SO IN THE SAFETY WORLD, WHEN YOU HAVE A SAFETY HOTLINE WHERE NOBODY IS CALLING IT, I'M VERY CONCERNED.
I WOULD RATHER HAVE MORE REPORTS THAN LESS REPORTS.
BUT AGAIN, WE WILL WORK THROUGH THE DETAILS OF THAT.
I THINK WE ALL AGREE. WE DON'T NEED DETAILS, BUT WE DO NEED TO KNOW IS THE HOTLINE RINGING? AND DO WE NEED TO BE AWARE OF IT? DIRECTOR LEVEL IS SOMETHING I THINK WE ARE ALL AGREEING TOWARDS. A QUARTERLY ROUTINE.
AND LOOKING TO BEST PRACTICES FOR THE LEVEL OF OFFENSE.
DON'T THINK WE NEED TO HEAR LOWER-LEVEL THINGS THAT YOU ARE RESOLVING. BUT HIGHER-LEVEL THINGS, CERTAINLY WE DO. BUT RATHER THAN TIM HAMMOND DECIDING, LET'S LOOK TO THE EXPERTS TO DO THAT.
OTHER THINGS IN HERE, YOU MENTIONED THE ISSUE OF CORPORATE COUNSEL BEING A SPECIAL CASE ON TOP OF A SPECIAL CASE? THE HR POLICY DOES REQUIRE THAT BECAUSE OF CORPORATE COUNSEL THEMSELVES ARE INVOLVED, THEY CAN'T INVESTIGATE THEMSELVES. SO EXTERNAL COUNSEL IS INVOLVED. I THINK BACK TO THE TIMELINESS OF IS THAT IMMEDIATELY? IF SO, I THINK IT SHOULD BE.
BECAUSE INSTANTLY, WE HAVE AN ISSUE WITH CORPORATE COUNSEL.
AND ALSO, WHO CHOOSES THAT COUNSEL?
[01:05:03]
DOES THE COUNCIL CHOOSE THAT? DOES THE MAYOR CHOOSE IT? ANOTHER PERSON CHOOSE IT? ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MR. OBERLANDER MENTIONED THAT I WASN'T AWARE OF IS FINDING COUNSEL THAT DOESN'T HAVE CONFLICTS.THAT DOESN'T ALREADY HAVE BUSINESS WITH THE CITY.
SO IT MAY BE THAT WE NEED TO HAVE A LIST IN THE BACKGROUND OF NON-CONFLICTED LAW FIRMS THAT WE MAY USE ON DECK.
SIMILAR TO YOU USING HRD. UNDERSTANDING HOW THAT COUNSEL MIGHT BESO THAT WE CAN BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY THEM AS WELL IN A TIMELY FASHION. THE OTHER ISSUE THAT I DON'T THINK WE DISCUSSED HERE IS WHAT IF THE MAYOR HIMSELF OR HERSELF IS ACTUALLY INVOLVED? AND I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THE POLICY MENTIONS HOW THAT'S RESOLVED.
SO IF IT IS ACTUALLY THE MAYOR WHO WAS INVOLVED IN A POTENTIAL ISSUE -- AS FAR AS I CAN READ THIS POLICY MANUAL, THERE IS NO POLICY ON HOW THAT WOULD BE RESOLVED.
SO I DO THINK IT DOES NEED TO BE DISCUSSED.
>> I THINK IT WOULD BE ELECTED OFFICIAL AND NOT JUST MAYOR.
>> THAT'S A GOOD POINT AS WELL. IF AN ELECTED OFFICIAL WOULD MAKE IT MORE GENERIC IS INVOLVED -- THIS IS SILENT.
AND I THINK THERE ARE TWO ISSUES OR MAYBE EVEN MORE.
WHAT IF THE ELECTED OFFICIAL THEMSELVES WHETHER IT'S A MAYOR OR COUNCIL -- OR JUDGE IS INVOLVED? HOW WAS THAT INVESTIGATED? BECAUSE IT'S SILENT TO THAT.
AND THE OTHER ISSUE DEALING WITH LOOPHOLES IS -- YOU KNOW, TO THE POLICIES AND PROCEDURES HERE, WHICH WE BELIEVE ARE NEAR BEST PRACTICE -- THEY CAN ALWAYS BE IMPROVED UPON -- SHOULDN'T THOSE ALSO APPLY TO ELECTED OFFICIALS AS WELL?
AND THAT'S AN ISSUE -- >> COUNSELOR HANAN? I THINK YOU DID A PERFECT SEGUE TO OUR ATTORNEY.
BECAUSE I'M PRETTY SURE WE CAN'T DO THAT.
>> I HOPE WE CAN'T DO THAT. BECAUSE THAT'S A WHOLE
DIFFERENT --. >> ALL THE ELECTED OFFICIAL -- THEIR POWER DERIVES FROM STATE STATUTES.
THERE ARE CERTAIN PROCEDURES FOR COUNSEL.
THERE IS THAT ONE SECTION AND INDIANA CODE WHERE YOU ARE ABLE TO REMOVE ONE OF YOUR OWN MEMBERS UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES WITH A CERTAIN VOTE.
BUT THAT DOESN'T APPLY TO OTHER ELECTED OFFICIALS.
AND THEY ARE NOT EMPLOYEES THAT COUNSEL WOULD HAVE THE OVERSIGHT ON. IT'S A DIFFERENT RELATIONSHIP.
>> I ALSO WANTED TO CLARIFY FROM A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT I HEARD -- NO MATTER WHAT WE CHANGE HERE, BY STATE STATUTE, WE STILL WON'T BE PART OF THE DECISION PROCESS.
WE WILL BE ABLE TO PUT PRESSURE ON.
BUT THE DECISION PROCESS WILL STILL REMAIN WITH THE EXECUTIVE
BRANCH, WON'T IT? >> YOU SET THE POLICIES.
THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH EXECUTES THEM.
>> BUT IN EACH INDIVIDUAL CASE, WE WON'T BE THE ONE MAKING THE DECISION? WE SET THE POLICY AND EXPECT
>> AND I WOULD ALSO ADD THAT I DON'T NECESSARILY THINK ALL OF THOSE SHOULD BE IN THE POLICY HANDBOOK THAT EMPLOYEES SEE.
THEY DON'T NEED TO SEE OTHER THINGS -- THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS THAT ARE LIKE WE TALKED ABOUT A TIMELINE TO RESPOND TO THEM. THAT IS SOMETHING THAT THEY NEED TO KNOW. BUT WHO GETS THIS INFORMATION AND HOW THEY HANDLE IT BEHIND THE SCENES -- THOSE SHOULD BE PRACTICES AND POLICIES BUT NOT DISTRIBUTED TO ALL OF OUR EMPLOYEES. THEY DON'TNEED TO KNOW ALL THE
BEHIND-THE-SCENES STUFF . >> RIGHT.
AND I WOULD ADD THAT COUNSEL DOES HAVE STATUTORY AUTHORITY TO INVESTIGATE ALL OTHER OFFICERS AND ELECTED OFFICIALS OF THE CITY. WHETHER THEY COULD ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING UPON THAT INVESTIGATION -- BUT YOU DO
HAVE THE POWER TO INVESTIGATE. >> THIS IS AN EXTREME CASE, BUT IF AN ELECTED OFFICIAL -- THERE IS AN ACTION THAT ELEVATES TO A LEVEL OF A CRIME, STATE LAW WOULD HAVE A PROCESS --
>> BEING REMOVED FROM THAT OFFICE?
>> NOT NECESSARILY -- (INDISCERNIBLE).
>> IT WOULD JUST BE A FELONY, RIGHT?
>> MISCONDUCT -- TAKING A BRIBE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
SO THAT'S A LEVEL VI FELONY. AND THAT MIGHT INVOLVE THE FBI
TOO. >> AND IF THAT ELECTED OFFICIAL PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED SOMEBODY BUT IT WASN'T A FELONY -- THEY COULD STAY IN OFFICE? I'M JUST CURIOUS.
>> I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THAT.
>> (LAUGHING) I'M JUST WONDERING!
[01:10:09]
[LAUGHTER] >> THEY COULD RESIGN OF COURSE.
BUT ACTUALLY IMPEACHING OR REMOVING THEM? I DON'T THINK THERE IS A PROCESS IN PLACE --
>> (LAUGHING) YOU NEVER KNOW. >> I BELIEVE IS CHICAGO HAD A COUNCILMEMBER WHO WAS ARRESTED FOR DRUG TRAFFICKING AND MURDER, SO THE COUNSELOR REMOVE THAT MEMBER.
[LAUGHTER] >> SO LET ME TRY TO REDIRECT.
SO AGAIN, COINCIDENTALLY, WE BROUGHT UP THE ISSUE FOR ELECTED OFFICIALS. SO WE HAVE LOOPHOLES FOR ELECTED OFFICIALS. AT LEAST AS A DRAFT ORDINANCE, WHICH WOULD BE OUR HOUSE RULES IS THAT SETTING RULES FOR COUNSEL -- IF WE AS COUNSEL BELIEVE WHETHER IT'S AN INCAPACITATION ISSUE OR CONDUCT ISSUE, THAT A COUNSEL COULD VOTE WITH THE SUPER MAJORITY IN NOTIFICATION TO REMOVE THAT PARTICULAR MEMBER. BUT AGAIN, THE QUESTION REMAINS. AND MAYBE IT'S UNANSWERABLE.
BUT WHAT IF IN THIS SITUATION FOR CORPORATE COUNSEL WE GET OUTSIDE COUNSEL? IF IT'S DEPARTMENT HEAD, IT GETS ESCALATED. BUT IF THERE IS CONDUCT OR CONCERNS THAT ARE BROUGHT UP SPECIFICALLY FOR AN ELECTED OFFICIAL -- JUDGE OR MAYOR -- IS STATE STATUE SILENT TO THAT? AND WE CANNOT ADD ANYTHING MORE?
OR ARE THERE OTHER OPTIONS? >> YOU ALWAYS HAVE THE INVESTIGATORY POWERS. THE JUDGE IS SUBJECT TO THE JUDICIAL CODE OF ETHICS. SO THERE ARE SEPARATE
>> WHAT ABOUT ETHICS COMMITTEE? OR COMMISSION?
>> WE DO HAVE THE ETHICS COMMITTEE AS WELL.
>> IS THIS WHAT THEY WOULD BE SET UP TO DO TYPICALLY?
>> NOT FOR ELECTED OFFICIALS. I THINK THAT TAKES -- IT CONTEMPLATES EMPLOYEES RATHER THAN ELECTED OFFICIALS.
ALTHOUGH ELECTED OFFICIALS ARE STILL SUBJECT TO -- YOU KNOW, OF NOT TAKING GIFTS OVER A CERTAIN AMOUNT.
>> KIND OF LIKE WHAT YOU WERE SAYING JOHN, OUR PRIMARY AUTHORITY IS TO INVESTIGATE. AND ONCE WE GET NOTICE AND ONCE WE INVESTIGATE, WE TAKE THAT REPORT.
THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS WE CAN DO WITH THAT REPORT IN ORDER TO PROVIDE SOME TYPE OF IMPACT OR CONSEQUENCE.
LIKE GETTING IT TO A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR.
HER REQUESTING A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR TO INVESTIGATE ETHICAL OR CRIMINAL ACTS. OR ABUSE OF PROPERTY.
PUBLIC PROPERTY. THOSE TYPES OF THINGS.
THAT'S PROBABLY THE GREATEST CONSEQUENCE WE CAN INFLICT ON ONE OF OUR OWN. OR ANY ELECTED OFFICIALS -- INVESTIGATING AND GETTING A REPORT.
AND ONCE WE GET THAT REPORT, DOING SOMETHING WITH THAT REPORT. GIVING IT TO SOMEONE WHO CAN
TAKE SOME TYPE OF ACTION. >> AND I WOULD SAY THAT ELECTED OFFICIALS ARE ALSO SUBJECT DEPENDING ON WHAT ACTS THEY COMMITTED.T MIGHT BE CRIMINAL LIABILITY OR CIVIL LIABILITY DEPENDING ON THE THE VOTERS ULTIMATELY.
WELL, THANK YOU. I THINK THE IMPROVEMENT, EVEN WITH THOSE STATUTORY LIMITATIONS WOULD BE REPORTING? AND I BELIEVE WE NEED TO DEFINE AND PUT LIMITS ON -- ONE IS REPORTING, TO HIS RESPONSE, AND THREE IS RESOLUTION.
SO IN THE CASE OF RESOLUTION, WE UNDERSTAND THAT IS A FUZZY'S NUMBER?ND WE MAY NOT BE ABLE TO NAIL IT DOWN ADEQUATELY.
BUT IN TERMS OF REPORTING AND RESPONSE, I THINK THOSE COULD BE (INDISCERNIBLE) NUMBERS. AND HAD WE HAD TIMELINES FOR REPORTING AND RESPONSE, AS WELL AS SENDING IT THROUGH THE PROPER CHAIN OF COMMAND? I THINK THAT COULD HAVE IMPROVED OR MITIGATED THE CURRENT SITUATION.
>> YEAH. AND I THINK IT WOULD BE WISE FOR US TO PUT SOME TYPE OF HARD NUMBERS IN THERE.
AND I UNDERSTAND THERE'S GOING TO BE DELAYS.
BUT YOU CAN EASILY INCLUDE LANGUAGE LIKE UNLESS OTHERWISE EXTENDED. THAT WAY THERE IS A DATE.
AND IT FORCES SOMEONE TO MAKE A DECISION.
BUT AS WE HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING, I THINK THE ISSUE IS GOING TO BE WHO IS THE GOVERNANCE OF THIS? WHO IS GOING TO BE IN CONTROL AND WHO IS MAKING THE DECISIONS? AND FOR THE MOST PART, THEY WILL LIKELY REMAIN IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH.
UNLESS WE MOVE FORWARD WITH A VERY AGGRESSIVE INVESTIGATIVE
ANY OTHER ISSUES? EITHER BY MR. OBERLANDER OR
[01:15:03]
DIRECTOR LAMB THAT YOU THINK WE CAN OR SHOULD DO AS AN ORGANIZATION TO BE MORE RESILIENT? MORE RESPONSIVE? AND CREATE A BETTER WORKENVIRONMENT? >> WHAT I WOULD SUGGEST IS JOHN AND I TALK AND TAKE THESE IDEAS AND SEE WHAT WE THINK SHOULD BE PUT INTO THE POLICY AND WHAT SHOULD BE A SEPARATE SET OF PRACTICES. AND THEN, WE WILL COME BACK AND PRESENT THAT TO YOU? DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? AND THEN, WE CAN SEE IF THERE IS ANYTHING WE OVERLOOKED THAT JUMPS OUT AT US. WE CAN EDIT THAT?
>> AND AGAIN, I'VE GOT MY LIST HERE.
AND WE CAN CERTAINLY COMMUNICATE.
YOU SAID NEXT WEEK YOU ARE ACTUALLY GOING TO MEET WITH
SO I WILL TALK TO COUNSELOR WRITER.
>> I APPRECIATE THAT. THE ONLY OTHER OPEN ISSUE IS WHAT I DO BELIEVE -- AND I WOULD ECHO WHAT COUNSELOR WRITER SAID. WE CERTAINLY APPRECIATE YOUR YEARS OF LOYAL AND FAITHFUL SERVICE.
WE WILL BE LOOKING AT ANOTHER HR DIRECTOR.
I THINK IT WOULD BE REASONABLE FOR US TO SET WHAT WE WOULD EXPECT OF THAT HR DIRECTOR. WE HAVE SEEN IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE THE IMPORTANCE OF HR. HR IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT YOU NEVER THINK ABOUT UNTIL YOU NEED IT I'M SURE YOU KNOW. AND THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE THAT
GRAY HAIR, RIGHT? >> (LAUGHING).
>> SO WE DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO RECOMMEND?
>> WE CAN'T SET POLICY. THERE IS NO ACTION WE COULD TAKE TO AFFECT THAT. YOU CAN RECOMMEND ANYTHING YOU WANT TO THE EXECUTIVE. BUT BY STATE STATUTE, --.
>> ONE OF THE THINGS I WOULD CERTAINLY SAY AND WHETHER THAT WOULD BE PART OF THIS RECOMMENDATION AND RESOLUTION IS WE CERTAINLY WANT SOMEONE WHO WAS WELL-QUALIFIED.
HAS THE CURRENT CREDENTIALS THAT WE WOULD EXPECT OF A HR DIRECTOR. IN RELATIVE EXPERIENCE.
THIS IS PROBABLY NOT THE PLACE TO CUT YOUR TEETH.
>> NO IT'S NOT. >> MAYBE IT WAS 30 YEARS AGO.
WE HAVE ALMOST 600 EMPLOYEES? CERTAINLY, WE WOULD STRONGLY ENCOURAGE THE MAYOR TO HIRE HIGHLY QUALIFIED, CREDENTIALED,
AND EXPERIENCED HR DIRECTOR. >> SOMEBODY LIKE BARB LAMB?
>> WELL, SHE'S NOT ATTAINABLE. >> I WAS GOING TO SAY A YOUNGER
ONE! >> WE WILL BE ABLE TO RETAIN YOU FOR TRANSITION WHICH I APPRECIATE.
>> YES. >> ANY OTHER QUESTIONS OR CONCER
* This transcript was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.