Dec 02, 2024 Finance, Utilities and Rules Committee Meeting 12-02-2024

[a. Resolution CC-11-18-24-06; A Confirmatory Resolution Designating an Economic Revitalization Area and Approving Tax Abatement for Qualifying Certain Personal Property – Alliance for Cooperative Energy Services Power Marketing, LLC; Sponsor(s): Councilor(s) Joshi and Worrell. ]

[b. Ordinance D-2740-24; An Ordinance of the Common Council of the City of Carmel, Indiana, Amending Chapter 2, Article 1, Sections 2-1, 2-3, 2-6, 2-10, 2-12, 2-13 and 2-14 of the Carmel City Code; Sponsor(s): Councilors Green and Aasen. ]

[c. Ordinance D-2741-24; An Ordinance of the Common Council of the City of Carmel, Indiana, Amending Chapter 2, Article 6, Sections 2-301, 2-302 and 2-303, of the Carmel City Code; Sponsor(s): Councilor(s) Green and Aasen. ]

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IT AS WE OPEN THE BOOKS FOR JANUARY 1ST. THERE WILL BE AN

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>> I GUESS THAT IS WHAT I'M STRUGGLING WITH. MAYBE IT IS A

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I'M NOT SURE WE UNDERSTAND ENOUGH AND IT IS TIED IN.

TAKING IT TO OUR COUNSELOR AND ENSURING IT HAS THE RIGHT STRUCTURE FROM A STATUTORY REQUIREMENT ON THE STATESIDE.

ALL OF THAT MAKES SENSE. WOULD LOVE YOUR FEEDBACK THEN ON HOW TO MAKE THAT ISSUE OF OVERSPENDING IN THE CATEGORY GO AWAY. THAT IS THE BIGGER ISSUE HERE. IT COMES TO A POINT WHERE I'M NOT CERTAIN THAT WE GET ENOUGH INFORMATION THEN TO UNDERSTAND EVEN HOW TO APPROVE OR DENY TRANSFERS AT THE END OF THE YEAR IF THERE IS ALREADY OVERSPENDING ANY LINE ITEM

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APPROVED. >> SOLD THE TWO THINGS, ONE WILL BE WE WILL HAVE A NEW PROCESS A NEW SET OF EXPECTATIONS GOING FORWARD. THE OTHER THING AND THIS IS A LITTLE BIT FURTHER DOWN THE ROAD. I'VE MENTIONED IT TO COUNSEL BEFORE AND I WILL MENTION IT AGAIN TO PUT IT ON YOUR RADAR. IN 2025 I WANT TO PLAN FOR A NEW ERP SYSTEM FOR THE CITY BECAUSE WE HAVE SOME OUTDATED AND ANTIQUATED SYSTEMS THAT DON'T TALK TO EACH OTHER. OUR PAYROLL SYSTEM REALLY DOES NOT TALK TO OUR ACCOUNTING SYSTEM. IT DOES NOT REALLY TALK TO OUR JOB ORDER SYSTEM. OR OUR ASSET MANAGEMENT. WE NEED A TRUE ERP. IN TERMS OF THAT AT THE STATE WE CALL IT THE BUDGET TOLERANCE. THERE OUGHT TO BE SOMETHING IN THE SYSTEM THAT WILL NOT PHYSICALLY ALLOW YOU TO PROCESS AN INVOICE IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE MONEY TO PAY IT. WE HAVE AN ORDER ACCOUNTING SYSTEM THAT DOES NOT HAVE THAT ABILITY. SO THERE ARE SEVERAL THINGS WE WILL BE DOING. WHAT I LOOK FOR IS AS WE WRITE THE BUDGET FOR 2026, TO INCLUDE SOME MONEY FOR THE ERP

IMPLEMENTATION, AND 2026. >> JUST A COUPLE THINGS BUT I'M GOING TO JUMP IN REAL QUICK. I THOUGHT DURING THE PURPOSE BUDGET PROCESS WE TALKED ABOUT THAT CURRENTLY AVAILABLE IN A LINE ITEM COULD ACTUALLY SEE HOW MUCH HAD BEEN SPENT TO COMPARE. I THINK I MADE THE REMARK I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT ON A MORE REGULAR BASIS AS PART OF OUR CHECK REGISTER. BECAUSE I HAVE NO IDEA WHEN WE ARE APPROVING CLAIMS. I THOUGHT YOU SAID THAT WE CAN DO THAT.

>> MY HOPE IS STARTING JANUARY 1ST AS WE START THE THE TECHNOLOGY WE HAVE THAT CAPABILITY NOW. I THOUGHT.

>> IT WOULD BE MANUAL BUT WE COULD RUN A REPORT THAT KIND OF WHENEVER COUNSEL IS GETTING CLAIMS. IN A CLAIMANT MEETING TO SHOW YOU THIS IS THE BALANCE BEFORE. THIS IS THE BALANCE --

>> NUMBER TWO, WE NEED TO ALL REMEMBER THERE IS AN ENTIRE ENTIRELY NEW LAYER OF MANAGEMENT OVER THESE DEPARTMENTS. AND I THINK SOME RESPONSIBILITY HAS TO OCCUR AS TO WHY OVERSPENDING IS STILL HAPPENING. IF THERE IS NOW ANOTHER PERSON ABOVE THE DIRECT WHO HAS TRADITIONALLY OPERATED IN A CERTAIN FORM OR MANNER. SO, I HAVE AND I THINK EVEN TONIGHT IS GOING TO BE AN EXCELLENT EXAMPLE OF WHY I WANT TO KNOW ALMOST TO THE DOLLAR THE TRANSFERS THAT ARE BEING MADE. HISTORICALLY IN NOVEMBER AND DECEMBER YES THERE WERE TRANSFERS BEING MADE BUT WE ALWAYS KNEW THAT WE HAD THE ABILITY TO SOMEONE WAS NOT SPENDING US INTO A BANKRUPT SCENARIO. IT WAS OVERTIME WE MISJUDGED OVERTIME OVER HERE AND TRAVEL WAS NOT AS MUCH. SO WE NEED TO FILL THAT IN. I DO NOT WANT TO LOSE ANY CONTROL OVER THAT.

>> JUST TO CLARIFY, THE BULK OF THE TRANSFERS THAT YOU WILL BE RECEIVING THAT ARE ON THE AGENDA TONIGHT AS WELL AS THE 16TH I BELIEVE, ARE THOSE TYPE OF TRANSFERS. YOU USE THE WORD BANKRUPT. AGAIN IT IS NOT A THERE ARE I BELIEVE TO DEPARTMENTS THAT NEED EXTRA MONEY BEYOND WHAT WAS APPROPRIATED FOR THEM THIS YEAR.

>> WHO ARE THOSE TWO DEPARTMENTS?

>> HUMAN RESOURCES WAS ONE. FUNCTIONALLY THE PAYROLL FUNCTION IN THE BUDGET FOR THIS YEAR IT WAS ASSUMED PAYROLL WOULD BE DONE BY THE FINANCE DEPARTMENT LIKE IT TRADITIONALLY HAS. BUT THAT FUNCTION MOVED OVER TO HR. BUT

THERE WERE NO DOLLARS. >> SO DUE TO A CHANGE. DUE TO A

DECISION. GOT IT. >> THE OTHER ONE BEING THE 200,000 WE ARE MOVING OUT OF THE POLICE OVER TO MACK FOR THE CONTRIBUTIONS TO PRIME LIFE. AND HISTORICAL SOCIETY. THERE IS ONE MORE AND IT IS NOT REALLY AN OVERSPEND SITUATION.

IT IS MORE WE JUST DID NOT BUDGET VERY WELL FOR OUR HEALTH INSURANCE COST THIS YEAR. WE'VE GOT ALSO NEXT COUNSEL'S AGENDA WE'VE GOT 1 MILLION WE ARE TRANSFERRING OF EXCESS MONEY WITHIN POLICE DEPARTMENTS BUDGET THIS YEAR. TRANSFERRING OVER TO THE MEDICAL FUND THE HEALTH INSURANCE FUND. THERE WAS A POINT I WAS GOING TO MAKE.

>> YOU WERE SAYING POLICE WAS MACK DID DID NOT BUDGET ENOUGH.

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>> I FEEL LIKE A DECISION WAS MADE AT SOME POINT THIS YEAR THAT I THINK FOR THOSE TWO EXPENDITURES.

>> OKAY. SO BOTH OF THESE TWO DEPARTMENTS ARE DUE TO DECISIONS BEING MADE IN THIS CURRENT YEAR THAT WERE

UNFORESEEN LAST YEAR. >> CORRECT. THE OTHER ONES JUST TO GO BACK TO BANKRUPT. THAT SMALLER LINE IS NEGATIVE BUT THOSE DEPARTMENTS ARE ALL LIVING WITHIN THEIR GRAND TOTAL BUDGET. IT IS JUST THEY HAVE SPENT LESS ON PERSONNEL AND MORE ON CONTRACTS OR MORE ON SUPPLIES AND LESS ON CAPITAL

OUTLAYS. >> WHICH I PREDICT WILL STILL

HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE. >> MY HOPE IS BUT AGAIN TO BRING THOSE TO YOU IN IT DANCE AND NOT AFTER-THE-FACT.

>> COUNSELOR AASEN. >> SOME OF THOSE CAN BE HARD ITEMS BUT I'M NOT A FAN OF THE COUNCIL GIVING AWAY POWER. IT MAY BE SEEN AS A RUBBER-STAMP. WE DON'T MIND IT. WE DON'T MIND HAVING IT ON THE AGENDA IS HAVING TO APPROVE THESE TRANSFERS AND CLAIMS. IT GIVES US A CHANCE NOT ACCUSING ANYBODY OF ANYTHING. IF THERE WERE FOR EXAMPLE DURING THE BUDGET PROCESS WE MAKE IT CLEAR WE DO NOT WANT MONEY SPENT ON AN ITEM. WE REMOVE IT FROM THE BUDGET AND LATER THE EXECUTIVE TRANSFERS MONEY TO DO IT ANYWAY EVEN AFTER THE COUNCIL SAYS THEY DON'T WANT TO DO IT. THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF WHERE WE HAVE THAT CHECK AND BALANCE. I DON'T SEE IT AS A BROKEN SYSTEM. I KNOW THE OVERSPENDING THAT CAN BE ADDRESSED EVEN WITH HOW MANY CHANGES HERE. I DO BELIEVE WE STILL NEED TO CLEAN UP HOW WE DRAFT THE BUDGET SO THAT PART WE MAY NEED TO AMEND THIS AS OPPOSED TO SCRAPPING IT AND VOTING IT DOWN. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WORRIES ME ABOUT THIS. IT SAYS THAT TO GET THE TRANSFERS THAT THE CLERK OR THE JUDGE OR THE COUNCIL HAVE TO GO TO THE CONTROLLER FOR TRANSFERS. THESE ARE SEPARATE BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT. I DON'T BELIEVE THEY SHOULD HAVE TO GO TO THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH TO CONTROL THEIR BUDGET. IF THE COUNCIL PASSES THE BUDGET, AND THEN FROM THERE I THINK IF THE CLERK'S OFFICE WANTS TO MOVE MONEY AROUND WITHIN THEIR BUDGET OR ENCUMBER THEIR MONEY, I DON'T KNOW IF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH SHOULD HAVE THE POWER TO TELL THE OTHER BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT HOW THEY CAN SPEND THEIR MONEY. THAT WOULD BE ANOTHER CONCERN OF MINE. MAKING SURE THAT EACH BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT HAS ITS OWN SEPARATE POWERS WHEN IT COMES TO THEIR

OWN BUDGETS. >> I WANT TO JUST SEE IF I HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF YOUR FIRST STATEMENT. THE EXAMPLE USED. OF SOMEBODY -- TONIGHT WE HAVE AN EXAMPLE OF A NEWSLETTER EXPENSE OR BUDGET NEWSLETTER WAS BUDGETED POSTAGE AND MAILING THAT WE VOTED ON. YOU AND I VOTED ON LAST YEAR. THAT IS BEING TRANSFERRED TO PERSONNEL. IS THAT AN EXAMPLE?

>> TO GIVE THE EXECUTIVE CREDIT THIS YEAR THE BUDGET THAT YOU'RE WORKING WITH WAS A BUDGET PAST FIVE DRAFTED THE PREVIOUS MAYOR. I UNDERSTAND WHAT THIS YEAR THEY MAY BE CHANGES. THERE WAS A PREVIOUS COUNCIL THAT PASSED IT. SO THIS YEAR IT MAY BE DIFFERENT. DURING OUR BUDGET PROCESS THERE WERE CLEAR ITEMS WERE WE SAID WE DO NOT THINK THIS IS A GOOD USE OF MONEY. MAYBE THERE WAS A DIFFERENCE OF AGREEMENT WITH THE DEPARTMENT HEADS. IF THEN THE MONEY WAS TRANSFERRED TO SPEND OUT IN ANYWAYS THAT SHE COME TO COUNSEL SO WE CAN HAVE A SAY ON THAT. BUT I UNDERSTAND -- THE MAYOR IS WORKING OFF OF

THE BUDGET THAT WAS DRAFTED. >> COUNSELOR TAYLOR KRICK

>> FIRST I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND WHY THESE END OF YEAR LINE ITEM TRANSFERS TYPICALLY WORK OUT.

GOING BACK TO PARKS IN 2010 AND YOU CAN RECEIVE THE FULL REPORT IF YOU WANT THAT SHOWS WHAT LINE ITEMS ARE. WE HAVE ACCESS TO THAT RIGHT NOW. PARKS USED TO GET EVERY MEETING THE REPORT. THE REPORT IS STRUCTURED LIKE A TRADITIONAL GOVERNMENT BUDGET WHERE IT IS A SPEND DOWN BUDGET NOT A P&L YOU WOULD TYPICALLY LOOK AT IN GOVERNMENT. OR IN THE PRIVATE INDUSTRY. YOU CAN SEE AT ANY POINT BY ASKING FOR THE FULL REPORT, WHAT LINE EACH INDIVIDUAL LINE ITEMS THE CITY OF CARMEL HAS BEEN OVERSPENT. THE PROBLEM IS WHEN YOU START FORMULATING A BUDGET, FOR NEXT YEAR IN JULY AND YOU HAVE DEPARTMENT HEADS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT INDIVIDUAL LINE ITEMS WILL BE FOR THE FOLLOWING YEAR. THERE IS ALWAYS IT IS AN ART AND NOT A SCIENCE. THERE IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE ISSUES THAT

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YOU BROUGHT UP IS ABSOLUTELY, WE SHOULD HAVE CENTRALIZED PURCHASING. LET ME GO OVER JUST A FEW REASONS. ONE IS WE JUST GOT ASSIGNED AN I.T. SECURITY ONLINE SECURITY TEST THAT WE ARE SUPPOSED TO TAKE AND GO THROUGH. IT TALKS ABOUT SHADOW I.T. IT TALKS ABOUT THE RISK OF VARIOUS DEPARTMENTS GOING OUT AND WITHOUT HIS CENTRALIZED PURCHASING GOING OUT AND ACQUIRING SOFTWARE THAT NOW HAS NOT BEEN VETTED BY I.T. AND CREATES OPENINGS OR RISK FOR OUR CITY FROM A MALWARE VIRUSES ET CETERA. ONE OF OUR COMMUNITIES JUST EXPERIENCED SOMETHING LIKE THAT. NUMBER TWO IS THE WAY OUR ENCUMBRANCES HAVE BEEN DEALT WITH WORKING WITH ZACH AND TALKING WITH HIM AND THIS YEAR'S BUDGET CYCLE. THE WAY ENCUMBRANCES HAVE BEEN HANDLED IN THE PAST IS ATROCIOUS. THERE'S ENCUMBRANCES SO THOSE ENCUMBRANCES I DON'T CARE IF THEY ARE FOR THE COURTS THE CLERKS OFFICE ENGINEERING, I DO NOT CARE. THOSE ENCUMBRANCES NEED TO BE HANDLED APPROPRIATELY AND THERE SHOULD NOT JUST PPOS USED OR RECEIVED IN DECEMBER TO ENCUMBRANCE MONEY FOR 24 MONTHS THEY DON'T NEED THAT DRIVES THEIR BUDGET UP FOR THAT FISCAL YEAR. SO THEN THAT ENSURES THEIR BUDGET TOO CONTINUES TO INCREASE YEAR-OVER-YEAR. CREATING THE POSSIBLE CLIFF FOR THOSE DEPARTMENTS. CENTRALIZED PURCHASING GOING THROUGH THE CONTROLLER'S OFFICE REGARDLESS OF WHO APPROVES TRANSFERS BUT I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT TRANSFERS BUT I'M TALKING ABOUT INSIDE OUR ORDINANCES THAT DRIVE AND PROCEDURES THAT DRIVE HOW PURCHASES HAPPEN. THEY SHOULD DEFINITELY BE GOING THROUGH THE CONTROLLER'S OFFICE BUT BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT THE STREET DEPARTMENT NEGOTIATING X FOR EQUIPMENT OVER HERE WHEN ANOTHER DEPARTMENT IS LOOKING AT ACQUIRING SIMILAR EQUIPMENT FROM SIMILAR VENDORS OVER HERE.

THEY ARE NOT UNIFYING TO GET THE MOST EFFICIENCIES AND COST REDUCTION AS POSSIBLE. OUR CENTRALIZED PURCHASING FOR ANY ORGANIZATION GOVERNMENT OR PRIVATE, IS AN IMPORTANT TOOL TO CONTROL COSTS. OUTSIDE OF THE DISCUSSION OF SUPPOSEDLY GIVING AWAY AUTHORITY TO OR GIVING AWAY AUTHORITY TO MAKE TRANSFERS. VETTED ALL OF THAT THAT IS INCLUDED IN THE NEXT ORDINANCE THAT 2741 24. THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THIS ORDINANCE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. NOW AND FULLY UNDERSTAND IT. I WOULD LIKE TO GET THROUGH THIS COMPLETE BUDGET PROCESS AND SEE WHERE WE LANDED AT THE END OF THE YEAR. BUT YES I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW, IF THE DEPARTMENTS HAS OVERSPENT AND HAVE ZACH BRING US TO THAT LINE ITEM NOW VERSUS THE END OF THE YEAR. MY UNDERSTANDING WITHOUT LEGAL COUNSEL HERE, TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, IF WE DO NOT APPROVE THOSE HERE AND THE BALANCES TRANSFERS AND THEY ARE NEGATIVE BALANCES IN THESE FUNDS, THEN IT IS SOME KIND OF MATERIAL FINDING WITH THE STATE BOARD OF ACCOUNTS. AND WE CAN'T ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN. SO WE ARE SORT OF AT A IT IS SORT OF DOES PUT US AT A WE DON'T WE HAVE NO CHOICE. WE CAN, WE HAVE WE OF COURSE COULD DECLINE THOSE TRANSFERS BUT BUT THERE WILL BE BIGGER RAMIFICATIONS FOR DECLINING THOSE TRANSFERS THAN US GOING AHEAD AND APPROVING THEM. I WOULD LIKE THE FACT IF WE KNEW THAT PRIOR TO THE END OF THE YEAR THAT ACCOUNTS HAVE NEGATIVE BALANCES AND WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO BED THOSE APPROVED THOSE EARLIER IN THE

YEAR. >> COUNSELOR SNYDER PICK

>> THANK YOU. SO, I'M GOING TO TOUCH ON SOMETHING -- IT DOES MAKE IT SOUND LIKE ASKING FOR PERMISSION. DULY ELECTED OFFICIAL THE JUDGE IN THE CLERK. SHOULD NOT -- I HEAR WHAT COUNSELOR TAYLOR IS SAYING. ABSOLUTELY SHOULD BE REVIEWED BY THE CONTROLLER. IT SHOULD NOT BE PERMISSION. THAT IS WHY ELECTED OFFICIALS TO DO OUR JOB. THE JUDGE WANTS TO ENCUMBER MONEY FOR SOMETHING THAT IS WHAT HE WAS ELECTED TO DO. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A FULLY UPDATED ORG CHART OF THE CITY.

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IF YOU'VE GOT $100,000 SOMETHING YOU WANT TO DO, YOU'RE GOING TO BREAK IT INTO TWO PHASES. THAT IS SIMPLE INAPPROPRIATE AND PERFECTLY LEGAL UNDER THIS. BUT I DON'T AGREE WITH IT. I DON'T I HAVE NOT WRAPPED MY HEAD AROUND THAT. THOSE ARE MY COMMENTS. I'M NOT A HARD NO ON IT BUT I NEED NO MORE TIME TO UNDERSTAND.

>> IF I CAN RESPOND BACK TO I THINK ONE OF COUNSELOR'S AASEN'S COMMENTS. COUNSELOR SNYDER YOU SET THIS TO. IN TERMS OF THE OTHER ELECTED ÚOFFICIALS KIND OF ASKING ME FOR PERMISSION, I GUESS MY WAY OF THINKING ABOUT IT IS YOU WANT ME TO BE THE CFO FOR ALL OF THE CITY OR 80% OF IT OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT? IT IS A FACETIOUS QUESTION. THE OTHER PART IS AND I CAN KIND OF TELL YOU TO AN EXTENT HOW THIS WORKS AT THE STATE. THEY STILL HAD TO COME TO ME TO GET PERMISSION. BUT I DID NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO TELL THEM NO. AND SO IT WOULD COME THROUGH ME TOO ON SOME OF THESE THINGS. SO I COULD PASS IT ALONG AND PUT IT IN THE SAME FORMAT AS EVERYTHING ELSE. MADE SURE IT HAD THE SAME LEVEL OF JUSTIFICATION, AT LEAST GIVE THEM FEEDBACK LIKE YOU ARE TRYING TO TAKE 50,000 FROM SOMETHING THAT ONLY HAS 40,000. THAT DOES NOT WORK. BUT EVEN IF I'M NOT SAYING NO IT IS STILL OR PUSHING BACK, STILL MAKES SENSE TO HAVE YOUR FINANCE PERSON IN THE MIDDLE THERE JUST

TO BE CHECKING THINGS. >> DON'T YOU THINK THAT THEN OPENS YOU UP FOR SOME LIABILITY? LET'S SAY YOU SAY NO OR YES TO SOMETHING. AND THEN IT COMES BACK BADLY. YOU LEGALLY CORRECT ME IF I USE THE TERMS WRONG. THE APPARENT AUTHORITY TO MAKE A DECISION. WHETHER IT HAD TO BE HONORED OR NOT. SO IF YOU SAY NO, YOU HAD I WOULD THINK YOU HAVE THAT APPARENT AUTHORITY. WHETHER YOU DO OR DON'T. I JUST ASSUME YOU DO. MAYBE IT JUST NEEDS TO BE WORDSMITH DO BETTER ON THAT PARTICULAR ISSUE. MY OTHER ISSUE STILL STAND.

>> COUNSELOR AASEN. >> THE WAY THIS IS WRITTEN PICK MAYBE WE CAN REWRITE IT SO IT REFLECTS WHAT YOU JUST SAID.

HIS IS THE CONTROL IT MAY TRANSFER FUNDS WITHIN A MAJOR BUDGET CLASSIFICATION FOR ALL STATE DEPARTMENTS OFFICE OF THE CLERK CITY JUDGE WITHOUT THE APPROVAL OF THE COMMON COUNCIL.

SO, IF THERE IS SOMETHING A CLERK OF THE JUDGE WAS DOING YOU CAN START MOVING MONEY IN THEIR BUDGET WITHOUT ASKING

THEM TECHNICALLY. >> YES

>> I THINK BEING SEPARATE FROM THE DEPARTMENTS THEY SHOULD HAVE THEY ARE NOT HUGE BUDGETS FOR THE JUDGE OR CLERK. THEY SHOULD HAVE MORE AUTONOMY. THE SAME THING WHERE IT SAYS THAT THEY HAVE TO COME TO YOU TO GET APPROVAL. I WILL PULL THIS UP HERE. FOR ENCUMBRANCES. MAY ONLY ENCUMBER FONTS WITHOUT GETTING APPROVAL FROM THE CLERK. THAT INCLUDES ALL'S

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THESE TRANSFERS. >> COUNSELOR SNYDER.

>> ONE MORE THING THAT CHAIRMAN BROUGHT UP. YOU MENTIONED SOMETHING ABOUT MOVING MONEY OUT OF THE NEWSLETTER BUDGET MONEY COMING OUT OF ALL THAT STUFF. I WASN'T HERE. THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE SET AT THIS DAY IS WHEN THAT BUDGET WAS CREATED. IF THIS WOULD'VE HAPPENED NEXT YEAR, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHY THAT DID NOT HAPPEN. WHY THE NEWSLETTER STOPPED GOING OUT WHEN CLEARLY THE LESS COUNSEL PUT THAT MONEY THERE FOR A REASON TO DO A NEWSLETTER THAT NEVER HAPPENED.

MAYBE IT IS NOT FOR THIS BUT IT KIND OF LENDS ITSELF TO AND WE KEEP SAYING THE RUBBER-STAMP. I HAVE NOT SEEN THIS COUNSEL RUBBER-STAMP A SINGLE THING ALL YEAR LONG. NOT THE SIMPLEST OF THINGS. SOMETIMES TO A FAULT. OVERCOMPLICATED IT. BUT IT IS OUR JOB. THAT IS A QUESTION I WILL ASK ABOUT SOME OF THESE ORDINANCES TONIGHT. WHY DIDN'T WE DO THIS ? CLEARLY THE INTENT OF THE PAST COUNSEL REGARDLESS OF THE PEOPLE THE BODY, WANTED TO DO THIS. THEY FUNDED THIS AND IT DID NOT GET DONE. AND MAYBE THAT IS A MERE ORAL AUTHORITY. THAT IS YOUR PREROGATIVE. BUT IT REALLY WASN'T UNTIL TODAY THAT I EVEN THOUGHT ABOUT I HAVE NOT SEEN A PRINTED NEWSLETTER. IF THERE WAS DATA SUPPORTING THAT DOING IT I WOULD'VE LOVED TO SEE THAT. I'M USING THAT BECAUSE IT IS HERE. I COULD PROBABLY FIND A NUMBER OF THOSE THINGS. THAT IS MY LAST COMMENT. I JUST THOUGHT OF IT WHEN YOU BROUGHT THAT UP.

>> SO THE OTHER COMMENT I WOULD MAKE IS ON THE SURFACE IT SOUNDS LIKE WHAT I THOUGHT I HEARD YOU SAY RIGHT NOW THE ORDINANCE THE WAY IT IS WORDED THAT THE COUNCIL SETS THE CHART OF ACCOUNTS WHICH SOUNDS VERY CLUNKY. THAT IS NOT HOW I READ AND HOW I UNDERSTAND WHAT IS HAPPENED HISTORICALLY. LIKE MANY THINGS THAT WE DO, STOP PROPOSES AND THEN WE ADOPT. OR WE APPROVE. OR WE SIGN OFF ON. I DON'T WANT TO GIVE THAT UP.

I THINK TO APPROVE A CHART OF ACCOUNTS. TO APPROVE BUDGETS.

TO APPROVE EVEN THIS WHOLE THING ABOUT ENCUMBRANCES, SOME ENCUMBRANCES ARE ACTUALLY VERY VALID AND VERY VALUABLE. I HEAR PEOPLE SAY THERE SHOULD NEVER BE A PUD ALLOWED. THAT IS NOT THE TRUE STATEMENT OR THOUGHTFUL STATEMENT. SO, I'M JUST OFFERING CAUTION. THAT WE DON'T THROW THE BABY OUT WITH THE BATHWATER. I AGREE WITH WHAT I'M HEARING THIS IS A STRONG COUNSEL AND WILL BE STRONG GOING FORWARD. AND I THINK TO WATER THAT DOWN WOULD BE A MISTAKE. SO, UNLESS IF THERE IS ANY FURTHER COMMENTS, I DON'T KNOW THAT THIS IS READY FOR PRIME TIME YET AS WELL. WE CAN I MAY GO TO PRESIDENT CRANE AND ASK HIM TO TABLE OR REMOVE OR LIFT.

>> I'M HAPPY TO WORK WITH MEMBERS OF COUNSEL TO GET THIS INTO I THINK SOME CHANGES ARE NECESSARY. IF THE THOUGHT IS I WENT TO FAR, I'M HAPPY TO WORK WITH COUNSEL TO PULL IT BACK SOME. TO GET TO A PLACE WE ARE ALL CONTENT.

[d. Analysis of Audit Committee]

>> APPRECIATE THAT. APPRECIATE YOUR WILLINGNESS TO DO THAT.

OKAY. IT IS 5:30. I DID NOT BELIEVE THAT WE WOULD GET TO ANALYSIS OF AUDIT COMMITTEE. BUT DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY STRONG THOUGHTS OR I WOULD SUGGEST WE PROBABLY ROLLED THAT ONE INTO THE NEXT MEETING OF THE FINANCE COMMITTEE. IF ANYONE WANTS TO VOICE SOMETHING PICK

>> NOT FOR TONIGHT. THERE IS TALK ABOUT GETTING THEM ADDITIONAL RESPONSIBILITIES. I'M OKAY WITH THAT. I'VE JUST BEEN STRUGGLING WITH THESE RESPONSIBILITIES EXISTED AND WERE CLEAR AND EASY THEN WHY HASN'T IT BEEN DONE BEFORE? I

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WHAT ARE THESE ADDITIONAL RESPONSIBILITIES THEY HAVE AND I'M GOING TO PROBABLY BE SKEPTICAL. IF THERE WAS SOMETHING CLEAR THEY SHOULD'VE BEEN DONE THEY PROBABLY WOULD

HAVE ALREADY DONE IT. >> GO AHEAD. AND IN COUNSELOR

SNYDER PICK >> MY REQUEST A RECOMMENDATION WAS GOING TO BE IF YOU CAN GIVE ME WE ARE PRETTY BUSY WITH END OF YEAR CLOSEOUT RIGHT NOW. BUT GIVE ME TIME AND MY THOUGHT WAS I COULD COME BACK TO THE FINANCE COMMITTEE IN LIKE JANUARY AND PRESENTS SOME RECOMMENDATIONS. WORK WITH THE EXISTING CHAIR OF THE AUDIT COMMITTEE. ALSO LOOK HOW OTHER CITIES HAVE IF THEY HAVE CREATED AN AUDIT COMMITTEE WITH THE INDIANA CODE IS. REALLY COME BACK WITH A RECOMMENDATION OR AT LEAST SOME OPTIONS FOR FINANCE COMMITTEE TO CONSIDER. Ú

>> IF I COULD JUST MAKE IT REAL QUICK I WILL MAKE SURE THIS HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE IS NOT LOST. BECAUSE I WAS HERE WHEN WE CREATED THE AUDIT COMMITTEE. THE AUDIT COMMITTEE WAS JUST LIKE MAYOR FINKELMAN IS DOING NOW WITH THE COMMITTEES THAT SHE IS SETTING UP. SHE WAS LOOKING FOR PERSPECTIVE FROM THE COMMUNITY BECAUSE WE ROUTINELY HAD DISAGREEMENTS REGARDING PROCESSAND POWER OVER FISCAL MATTERS BETWEEN THE ADMINISTRATION AND THE ELECTRIC CLERK TREASURER. SO THAT IS HOW THIS WAS STARTED. AND IT WAS SET UP IN ORDER TO GIVE THE COUNCIL A WAY OF LIKE WHO IS RIGHT HERE? AND SO THEN IT MORPHED INTO THERE WERE SOME MEMBERS OF THE AUDIT COMMITTEE WHO WANTED TO DO WHAT THEY WERE USED TO DOING IN CORPORATE AMERICA. THAT WOULD BE TO AUDIT I.T. AND AUDIT OTHER AREAS THAT I THINK THE COUNCIL AT THAT TIME WAS NOT COMFORTABLE DOING.

JUST AS YOU WORK ON THAT ZACH THAT IS JUST HOW WE GOT THERE.

AND WHETHER IT IS EVEN IMPRACTICAL NOW.

>> IF I CAN AS FAR AS I KNOW THE ONLY STATUTORY REASON AT THE STATE LEVEL FOR ONE AND AUDIT COMMITTEE IS REQUIRED, IS IF THE RECOMMENDATION IS GOING TO BE THAT WE DON'T USE STATE BOARD OF ACCOUNTS TO DO OUR AUDIT. IF WE ARE WANTING TO USE SOME SORT OF INDEPENDENT PRIVATE CPA FIRM OR SOMETHING.

IN THAT SITUATION IT KIND OF REQUIRES A RECOMMENDATION AND MORE OVERSIGHT FROM THE AUDIT COMMITTEE. AS FAR AS I CAN TELL SO FAR THAT APPEARS TO BE THE ONLY AREA THAT STATE LAW REQUIRES YOU TO HAVE AN AUDIT COMMITTEE.

>> COUNSELOR SNYDER PICK >> I MADE IT CLEAR AT THE LAST MEETING I DID NOT I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE NEED FOR IT. I DO HAVE A HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE. THE AUDIT COMMITTEE I'M INTERESTIS PUBLIC. THE OTHER ONES AND I COULD NAME ABOUT 10 PEOPLE TO EMAIL US NEARLY WEEKLY.

AUDITING EVERYTHING. TO YOUR POINT ABOUT FORFEITING STATE BOARD OF ACCOUNTS, OR DLG OF AUDIT, IF WE WENT AND HIRED OUR OWN FARM IT IS STILL NOT THE AUDIT COMMITTEE. IT WOULD PROBABLY BE THE SAME FIRM THEY ARE SENDING OUT ANYWAY. IT IS KIND OF A ROLL OF THE DICE WHETHER YOU'RE GETTING EXTERNAL EXTERNAL OR INTERNAL AUDIT.

>> OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS KIND OF ALL OF THE STIMULUS MONEY COVERT MONEY COMING OUT OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DID REQUIRE THE STATE BOARD OF ACCOUNTS TO GO OUT AND CONTRACT WITH A NUMBER OF AUDIT FIRMS TO HELP THEM DO THEIR STATE AUDITS. WE ARE NOW KIND OF PASSED THAT PIG IN THE PYTHON. WE'VE MOVED ON.

SO THE LEVEL IS NOW BACK WHERE THE ACTUAL EMPLOYEES OF STATE BOARD OF ACCOUNTS ARE IN A BETTER POSITION TO KEEP UP ON THEIR AUDIT WORK. SO FOR THIS YEAR I THINK IT WAS FORTIS -- SORRY. THAT DID OUR AUDIT. IT WAS AT THE THEY WERE ASSIGNED TO US BY STATE OF ACCOUNTS. THEY ASKED US IF WE WANTED TO CONTINUE USING THAT FIRM AT OUR EXPENSE FOR THE NEXT AUDIT. AND WE SAID NO. WE WILL TAKE THE FREE AUDIT FROM STATE BOARD OF ACCOUNTS. BUT IF WE WOULD TO MAKE THAT DECISION AT THE STATE LEVEL THAT IS WHERE THEIR REQUIREMENT THAT IS A RECOMMENDATION FROM YOUR AUDIT COMMITTEE. WHERE AT LEAST YOU HAVE AN AUDIT COMMITTEE OVERSEEING THAT INDEPENDENT AUDITOR WHEN IT IS NOT STATE BOARD OF ACCOUNTS.

>> I DON'T THINK IT IS ACTUALLY FREE. WE PAY A STIPEND

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I BELIEVE PICK >> YOU ARE RIGHT. WE PAY SOMETHING. BUT WE DON'T REALLY PAY MARKET RATE.

>> YES. >> THIS IS NOTHING AGAINST THE PEOPLE WHO SERVE ON THE AUDIT COMMITTEE. WE THANK THEM SO MUCH. IT HAS BEEN DIFFICULT TO FIND PEOPLE TO SERVE ON THE COMMITTEE. LAST TIME COUNSELOR -- WE WENT PROBABLY MORE THAN A YEAR I THINK WITH A VACANCY BECAUSE CERTAIN STIPULATIONS OF WHO CAN SERVE ON IT. THEY HAVE TO MEET THOSE REQUIREMENTS.

WANTING SOMEONE WILLING TO SERVE CAN BE QUITE DIFFICULT TO FILL SOME OF THESE VACANCIES WHEN THEY COME UP ON THE AUDIT

COMMITTEE. >> FAIRPOINT. ARE THERE ANY OTHER COMMENTS BEFORE WE

* This transcript was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.